Warm / Dry / Clean houses - how should it be done in NZ?

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xyf

300 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3295306 10-Oct-2024 08:29

I did soemthing similar for the top architraves in 2 rooms. I left the og stuff untouched, cut thru the old board like gib, then when the new gib was installed i added a run of thin timber that matches to create a 'more epic' alchitrave. You cant tell the difference but depends on what you have installed as it wouldnt work with every look. Around windows I would think works too but less likely to match it. My window trim actually all came off easily, and I could then insulate them really well with the foam at that point.

elpenguino

3419 posts

Uber Geek

#3295335 10-Oct-2024 09:51

timbosan:

A question related to this - I have heard that sometimes, people don't remove the trim around the windows (or even the skirting / architraves) and just pull off the wallboard and gib up the edges. I am removing skirting / architraves, but in two minds about the windows. (this is from someone who did work on state houses and to reduce costs, they didn't remove any trim).

Is it bad to just leave the trim in place and cut the wallboard where the trim ends?

Interesting approach. Old Rimu trims will easily split when removing and then need to be replaced. As a beginner I found making new ones relatively easy, compared to say skirting boards or architraves.

Still, if you wanted to do that you would have to tuck the gib behind the trims to avoid an unsightly crack. How easy will that be at the top of the window?

Bear in mind, to avoid cracks forming over time you want to follow the instructions on p40 which sometimes means working with larger sheets that will need to be manoeuvred behind the trims without breaking them.

https://www.gib.co.nz/assets/Site-Guide-2024/5-GENERAL-WALL-AND-CEILING-INSTALLATION_GIB0107_GIB_Site_Guide_v11.pdf

If the gib isn't well fastened you'll get cracks in your paint etc so you need to be able to ensure that the sheet is fastened all the way to the edge.

Personally, I remove all the trim because I want to seal all the gaps around the edges.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

timbosan

2159 posts

Uber Geek

#3295349 10-Oct-2024 10:16

elpenguino:

timbosan:

A question related to this - I have heard that sometimes, people don't remove the trim around the windows (or even the skirting / architraves) and just pull off the wallboard and gib up the edges. I am removing skirting / architraves, but in two minds about the windows. (this is from someone who did work on state houses and to reduce costs, they didn't remove any trim).

Is it bad to just leave the trim in place and cut the wallboard where the trim ends?

Interesting approach. Old Rimu trims will easily split when removing and then need to be replaced. As a beginner I found making new ones relatively easy, compared to say skirting boards or architraves.

Still, if you wanted to do that you would have to tuck the gib behind the trims to avoid an unsightly crack. How easy will that be at the top of the window?

Bear in mind, to avoid cracks forming over time you want to follow the instructions on p40 which sometimes means working with larger sheets that will need to be manoeuvred behind the trims without breaking them.

https://www.gib.co.nz/assets/Site-Guide-2024/5-GENERAL-WALL-AND-CEILING-INSTALLATION_GIB0107_GIB_Site_Guide_v11.pdf

If the gib isn't well fastened you'll get cracks in your paint etc so you need to be able to ensure that the sheet is fastened all the way to the edge.

Personally, I remove all the trim because I want to seal all the gaps around the edges.

Ok, more details :-) These 2 rooms where added in approximately 1950, walls are lined with hardboard (and split / bowing, hence removing) and the ceiling is softboard. Exterior is weatherboard but a smaller profile than the main part of the house (1910's). The door to that room was added around 5 years ago (before my time) - I know this as I have spoken to the build that did the work :-)

I had another look at the windows, especially the big one which is nearly the length of the room. I am guessing its not Rimu, possibly pine, and the profile isn't too complex so worse case I can find a replacement.

Personally, I remove all the trim because I want to seal all the gaps around the edges. - this is the part that concerns me - with the effort of stripping the walls, building paper, insulation, vapour barrier, gib over the soft board, replacing skirting / archives, I am probably over estimating the effort / time to pull the door and window trims off. Particularly the internal barrier which should go to the edges of the window proper.

@elpenguino - so you did this yourself? I know hard to compare houses, but was it hard to remove?

elpenguino

3419 posts

Uber Geek

#3295359 10-Oct-2024 10:29

timbosan:

elpenguino - so you did this yourself? I know hard to compare houses, but was it hard to remove?

Yepp, I did it myself. Pulling things apart is easy.

I only recently got a decent slide mitre saw and I wish I had got one before doing all the room renovations I have done.

I did all my window /door / wardrobe trims , skirting boards and so on with a cheap a*s ryobi drop saw and the stock blade (and a hand coping saw) which in hindsight, made things harder than they needed to be. I became an expert at turning long pieces of timber into short pieces :-)

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

Kickinbac

427 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3295546 10-Oct-2024 14:00

For retrofitting wall insulation, BRANZ has some guidance.

A difference to what the OP is doing is allowing a path for any moisture to drain at the bottom so it doesn't sit on the bottom plate.

https://d39d3mj7qio96p.cloudfront.net/media/documents/BRANZ_RN_Warmer_Drier_Healthier_7.pdf

edit: I'm not geeky enough and always get the BBCode wrong!

timbosan

2159 posts

Uber Geek

#3295566 10-Oct-2024 14:53

Kickinbac:

For retrofitting wall insulation, BRANZ has some guidance.

A difference to what the OP is doing is allowing a path for any moisture to drain at the bottom so it doesn't sit on the bottom plate.

https://d39d3mj7qio96p.cloudfront.net/media/documents/BRANZ_RN_Warmer_Drier_Healthier_7.pdf

edit: I'm not geeky enough and always get the BBCode wrong!

Interesting and thanks! I did try and and find "drainage plane mesh" but couldn't see any products. I did read that paper up against the weatherboards works well - and no worse than then "20mm gap" approach. If I cannot find the drainage plane mesh products I will go with this solution :-)

gzt

17104 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3295695 10-Oct-2024 19:53

Handle9: It’s an acceptable method under NZS4246:2016. Any building inspector who is qualified will understand what is being done.

Nice!

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gzt

17104 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3295697 10-Oct-2024 19:56

Kickinbac: For retrofitting wall insulation, BRANZ has some guidance.

A difference to what the OP is doing is allowing a path for any moisture to drain at the bottom so it doesn't sit on the bottom plate.

https://d39d3mj7qio96p.cloudfront.net/media/documents/BRANZ_RN_Warmer_Drier_Healthier_7.pdf

edit: I'm not geeky enough and always get the BBCode wrong!

There may or may not be a path in the OP case depending on how the cladding is fixed. I was not brave enough to inspect the link above ; )

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3295703 10-Oct-2024 20:07

for drainage a tiny gap is all thats required. they even make crinkled housewrap for that purpose. the crinkles give it enough space for drainage. house wrap pocket installed will work just fine for drainage.

the space, like modern rainscreen setup, is for airflow for drying. the bigger the better which is why scott did his the way he did.

drainage plane mesh type products i have no idea if they are available here as i'm not sure if there is much use for them here. they are certainly available overseas where they use them to create drainage plane on direct fixed cladding.

timbosan

2159 posts

Uber Geek

#3295716 10-Oct-2024 20:30

gzt:

Kickinbac: For retrofitting wall insulation, BRANZ has some guidance.

A difference to what the OP is doing is allowing a path for any moisture to drain at the bottom so it doesn't sit on the bottom plate.

https://d39d3mj7qio96p.cloudfront.net/media/documents/BRANZ_RN_Warmer_Drier_Healthier_7.pdf

edit: I'm not geeky enough and always get the BBCode wrong!

There may or may not be a path in the OP case depending on how the cladding is fixed. I was not brave enough to inspect the link above ; )

I did open it ;-) Its just a PDF but VERY informative, basically looking a four options to insulate a weatherboard house with direct attached weatherboards (like mine):

● Without cavity and without underlay (Figure
1a).
● Without cavity and with underlay (Figure 1b).
● With 20 mm separation between cladding and
insulation and without underlay (Figure 1c).
● With drainage plane mesh and with underlay
(Figure 1d).

Option 4 was the best, 2 was second best and 3 was no better than 2 which was surprising.

timbosan

2159 posts

Uber Geek

#3295871 11-Oct-2024 10:20

Hey all, thanks so much to everyone who has replied so far. I thought I would summarise where I am at.

The plan (for this stage) was originally to remove the interior wall lining on the front rooms of the house as they are hardboard and have damage from splitting / bowing. This was originally to prep the walls for Insulmax, however I am now not proceeding with that option, instead going to install insulation from the inside.

I am going to go with the 'pocket' method - installing building paper in each 'pocket' created by the studs and nogs and push up against the weatherboard, which is direct attached to the studs
In each pocket I will install insulation. Ideally PIR insulation as I can get R4.2 from a 90mm board compared to around R2.5 from batts - (Placemakers link)
Over this I will install Siga Majrex as an interior vapour barrier on all walls, taped to the existing ceiling and to the floor
Gib the wall with 13mm board - aiming for Braceline
Ceiling will have same 13mm gib over the softboard

End result should be a warm / dry / draft free (except the floors, they are next!!!) area with reduced noise.

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3296120 11-Oct-2024 15:49

timbosan:

Ideally PIR insulation as I can get R4.2 from a 90mm board compared to around R2.5 from batts - (Placemakers link)

hell no.

if you install PIR board then no point using the smart vapor barrier because PIR does not let vapor through it. you never want to stop vapor from going through the wall. you want vapor open insulation eg fibre insulation. i would use the denser higher insulating batts if the cost is ok.

non-permeable products (like spray foam, iso, pir) need to be used correctly and they require the house to be run the right way. you can't just substitute one for another and use the house like normal.

timbosan

2159 posts

Uber Geek

#3296227 11-Oct-2024 16:48

tweake:

timbosan:

Ideally PIR insulation as I can get R4.2 from a 90mm board compared to around R2.5 from batts - (Placemakers link)

hell no.

if you install PIR board then no point using the smart vapor barrier because PIR does not let vapor through it. you never want to stop vapor from going through the wall. you want vapor open insulation eg fibre insulation. i would use the denser higher insulating batts if the cost is ok.

non-permeable products (like spray foam, iso, pir) need to be used correctly and they require the house to be run the right way. you can't just substitute one for another and use the house like normal.

Damn @tweake - glad you take the time to put me right otherwise I would be creating more of a mess than I am starting with! I appreciate the help :-)

OK, so back to poly or similar, something like this gets me R2.5 still https://insulationwarehouse.co.nz/shop/product/greenstuf-polyester-wall-insulation/
or R2.8 for glasswool https://www.bunnings.co.nz/earthwool-90-x-580-x-1160mm-6-7m-r2-8-glasswool-acoustic-wall-insulation-batt_p0224644

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3296234 11-Oct-2024 16:58

timbosan:

Damn @tweake - glad you take the time to put me right otherwise I would be creating more of a mess than I am starting with! I appreciate the help :-)

OK, so back to poly or similar, something like this gets me R2.5 still https://insulationwarehouse.co.nz/shop/product/greenstuf-polyester-wall-insulation/
or R2.8 for glasswool https://www.bunnings.co.nz/earthwool-90-x-580-x-1160mm-6-7m-r2-8-glasswool-acoustic-wall-insulation-batt_p0224644

polyester is typically a lower r rating for the same size compared to batts. so for a wall i would go batts.

polyester i think is better for underfloor because its bigger and far easier to install.

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