Real estate, post COVID-19 level 4 (since 2020)

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#2870211 17-Feb-2022 12:11

Yeap, I don't think many here are arguing things are good the way they are, but it is the reality of it.

Queue this thread going full circle again of house prices need to come down, but in a way that doesn't kill the economy?!

GV27

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#2870235 17-Feb-2022 12:17

martyyn:

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I think you're being a little naïve.

This is life, if you can't afford something you need to look at something else.

"This is life" is exactly the kind of patronizing crap that enables our continuing slide in living standards, along with other greatest hits like "Lower your expectations and move further out" and "try buying fewer takeaway coffees" or something about iPhones.

"Life" in NZ has never been about huge amounts of disposable incomes being mopped up for 30 years for starter homes while basic levels of accommodation get further and further out of reach for ordinary wage earners - previously comfortable white collar professions that could support a household on one income can now not afford a house with two incomes, or house deposits in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

This is a new development in this country, and it is extremely unwelcome.

It is not naive, it is just simply being unequivocal about what I regard as unacceptable in terms of our quality of life going rapidly backwards. If I wanted a hyper-capitalistic race to the bottom where every possible necessity of life is priced only for those who can afford it, I'd move to the United States.

MikeAqua

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#2870238 17-Feb-2022 12:19

There are well paying white collar jobs in the regions (I have one, so does my partner). They tend to be in primary industry.

Our house, is nice but not luxurious, in a desirable neighbourhood (for Blenheim) and has a pool. It cost less than twice our combined gross annual salaries.

Mike

GV27

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#2870246 17-Feb-2022 12:28

Like to be clear, I'm not denying the reality of the current situation, but that doesn't mean I have to just shrug my shoulders and be happy about it, or be comfortable with baking in such a deteriorating state of affairs for future Kiwis.

tdgeek

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#2870249 17-Feb-2022 12:38

Well, as far as I can remember, NZ is supposed to be a low wage economy. Its also a market driven economy. House prices have been rising for a long time, but no one was ever bothered (Governments and the public) . Until it hit the wall. Covid obviously hasn't helped, but if Covid wasn't a thing, we would have immigration arriving every day and not building their own accomodation. While an incoming flight wont cause house demand to rise, it will silently creep over time. While Clarke and Key talked about house prices in I think 2000 or 2001, nothing ever happened, ad the bottom line is you cannot wind 20 years back in quick time.

martyyn

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#2870252 17-Feb-2022 12:40

GV27:

martyyn:

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I think you're being a little naïve.

This is life, if you can't afford something you need to look at something else.

"This is life" is exactly the kind of patronizing crap that enables our continuing slide in living standards, along with other greatest hits like "Lower your expectations and move further out" and "try buying fewer takeaway coffees" or something about iPhones.

"Life" in NZ has never been about huge amounts of disposable incomes being mopped up for 30 years for starter homes while basic levels of accommodation get further and further out of reach for ordinary wage earners - previously comfortable white collar professions that could support a household on one income can now not afford a house with two incomes, or house deposits in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

This is a new development in this country, and it is extremely unwelcome.

It is not naive, it is just simply being unequivocal about what I regard as unacceptable in terms of our quality of life going rapidly backwards. If I wanted a hyper-capitalistic race to the bottom where every possible necessity of life is priced only for those who can afford it, I'd move to the United States.

And your attitude of "I should be able to live where I want" regardless of whether you can afford it or not is the self-entitled attitude which sees people whacking up masses of debt simply because they want the latest car, phone, tv, house, whatever.

Live within your means, if you want better either earn more money or spend less. It's not rocket science.

We sold up and moved out 10 years when trying to live in the city nearly killed me. Accepting we simply couldn't afford it was the best decision we've ever made. After living and working in NZ and Europe it was also one of the hardest.

I found the contract my dad signed when we moved out here from the UK in the 80's. His salary was $25000 and yes back then a family of four could live on that. It was far from pretty, but we don't live in the 80's anymore.

[e] I'm not saying I like it either and I worry about my kids potential but we've hopefully raised them to see living and working in the city has both pros and cons.

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MikeAqua

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#2870254 17-Feb-2022 12:42

GV27:

Like to be clear, I'm not denying the reality of the current situation, but that doesn't mean I have to just shrug my shoulders and be happy about it, or be comfortable with baking in such a deteriorating state of affairs for future Kiwis.

My general observation has been that wherever I go in the developed world, real estate in the bigger cities is horrendously expensive.

Mike

GV27

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#2870310 17-Feb-2022 13:01

martyyn:

And your attitude of "I should be able to live where I want" regardless of whether you can afford it or not is the self-entitled attitude which sees people whacking up masses of debt simply because they want the latest car, phone, tv, house, whatever.

Live within your means, if you want better either earn more money or spend less. It's not rocket science.

We sold up and moved out 10 years when trying to live in the city nearly killed me. Accepting we simply couldn't afford it was the best decision we've ever made. After living and working in NZ and Europe it was also one of the hardest.

I found the contract my dad signed when we moved out here from the UK in the 80's. His salary was $25000 and yes back then a family of four could live on that. It was far from pretty, but we don't live in the 80's anymore.

[e] I'm not saying I like it either and I worry about my kids potential but we've hopefully raised them to see living and working in the city has both pros and cons.

I should be able to afford to live in the city I was born in. That is not an unreasonable attitude for a Kiwi to have.

I'm sorry if you think that makes me entitled, but nothing you have experienced is relevant when it comes to house prices increasing by 30% in 18 months either.

You can parrot whatever boomer tropes you like, but as I have pointed out: The rapid increases in housing are an extremely recent development. You can choose to what extent you are happy with life rapidly becoming affordable in this country.

I have chosen to be angry about it and not accept it.

You have chosen to blame people for buying too many phones or TVs and call them entitled.

One of these bakes our crappy circumstances and reinforces people we should live in a race to the bottom society where no one but those at the top get the basics of life with any degree of comfort. Again, that's not the New Zealand I grew up in and it's not the New Zealand I want for my kids, or anyone else's for that matter.

tdgeek

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#2870315 17-Feb-2022 13:08

What needed to happen in the past, 20 years ago when houses started moving up relative to income was to incentivise new builds. That never happened. A KiwiSaver $5000 grant does nothing to say I can now afford to buy as a FHB. Nor does the $10000 grant for a FHB new build. It should have been zero for existing homes, but for FHB new builds, $30,000. Sorted. Too late now though, but its still a good idea, it would still take a decade or more to have an effect. Kiwibuild was supposed to provide 100,000 hoes, it didnt, as it was too late, they already cost too much. And you cant build extra new builds if you dont have people wanting to build. Incentivise them to build

GV27

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#2870321 17-Feb-2022 13:16

tdgeek:

What needed to happen in the past, 20 years ago when houses started moving up relative to income was to incentivise new builds. That never happened. A KiwiSaver $5000 grant does nothing to say I can now afford to buy as a FHB. Nor does the $10000 grant for a FHB new build. It should have been zero for existing homes, but for FHB new builds, $30,000. Sorted. Too late now though, but its still a good idea, it would still take a decade or more to have an effect. Kiwibuild was supposed to provide 100,000 hoes, it didnt, as it was too late, they already cost too much. And you cant build extra new builds if you dont have people wanting to build. Incentivise them to build

Land reform really needs to be part of the question here too, along with drastically shortening building timeframes so that projects aren't exposed to cost swings.

We don't really have the expertise in things like apartment blocks and many people wouldn't touch them, but Hobsonville Pt shows planned density can work in greenfield sites within Auckland and still have desirable outcomes.

Did we ever get clarity on the Unitec developments and what was going on there?

quickymart

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#2870323 17-Feb-2022 13:18

martyyn:

Live within your means, if you want better either earn more money or spend less. It's not rocket science.

What about if you're already trying to do this but not getting ahead, due to the increasing costs of living?

Move somewhere cheaper? That costs money too.

Spend less? I've already cut back on almost everything I can.

Get a new job? If it pays more, great - but I have to get that offer too, and first I need to find something suitable.

I agree "it's not rocket science" but it's not always as simple as just packing up your things and calling a mover, either.

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tdgeek

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#2870326 17-Feb-2022 13:27

GV27:

Land reform really needs to be part of the question here too, along with drastically shortening building timeframes so that projects aren't exposed to cost swings.

We don't really have the expertise in things like apartment blocks and many people wouldn't touch them, but Hobsonville Pt shows planned density can work in greenfield sites within Auckland and still have desirable outcomes.

Did we ever get clarity on the Unitec developments and what was going on there?

Agree, but that should have began 20 years ago. Unitec?

tdgeek

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#2870329 17-Feb-2022 13:29

quickymart:

What about if you're already trying to do this but not getting ahead, due to the increasing costs of living?

Move somewhere cheaper? That costs money too.

Spend less? I've already cut back on almost everything I can.

Get a new job? If it pays more, great - but I have to get that offer too, and first I need to find something suitable.

I agree "it's not rocket science" but it's not always as simple as just packing up your things and calling a mover, either.

Yep, not easy. But if Governments had ticked away with housing 20 years ago, we would not be in this position. Easy to say now, but it wasn't a secret back then either, as the 3X multiplier was already on the rise

GV27

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#2870337 17-Feb-2022 13:39

tdgeek:

Agree, but that should have began 20 years ago. Unitec?

Unitec was supposedly being developed into thousands of houses, not sure what is happening there and there haven't been many announcements recently about it.

It was a Twyford era project and there's not a lot of details on where things are at or how it is progressing.

Perhaps a good example of even if you vote for the change you want to see, you're not likely to get it as a young person.

MikeAqua

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#2870340 17-Feb-2022 13:40

tdgeek:

Yep, not easy. But if Governments had ticked away with housing 20 years ago, we would not be in this position. Easy to say now, but it wasn't a secret back then either, as the 3X multiplier was already on the rise

I wonder if, in retrospect, housing would have been better investment for the Clark govt than working for families or Kiwirail? That's when land value started to take off

Mike

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