Sleepout renovations - thoughts, suggestions, tips

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#2778481 14-Sep-2021 21:25

Thanks for all the suggestions.

We got a sparky in to quote for upgrading the switchboard and to install an additional power socket on the wall, and we also asked about hardwiring ethernet. Based on the age they reckon the power to the sleepout won't be ducted, so they recommended digging a trench to run data cable from the house into the sleepout. I hadn't really considered that approach before, but I think it's worthwhile, and I reckon it's something I could probably manage.

My plan is to run Cat6 cable from the main switch through the roof (where cabling runs to the bedrooms) and then exit the house on the wall facing the sleepout. We'd then run some ducting down the side of the house (under house is too difficult at that corner, with almost zero access) and trench across the backyard to the sleepout and enter via the external wall.

I'm thinking the way to approach this project would be to install the wiring in the sleepout while we have the wall lining off, before the gib goes up, and then terminate with wallplates. I'm planning to have three ethernet jacks - one at each end of the room, and a third to connect a wifi AP. I'd dig the trench in a few weeks time and lay the conduit, running the cables through the conduit back to the house, up the ducting and entering the house by the roof cavity, and then running the cables back down to the switch.

My questions:

1. What kind of conduit would be recommended to lay in the trench? Total length is around 15m, so I'm guessing I'll need to join several lengths. What should I use to join the lengths?

2. What kind of ducting would be recommended for fixing to the side of the house? Presumably, it needs to be UV protected?

3. If we're not digging the trench before we run the cables in the sleepout, would we just have the run of ethernet cable sitting outside ready and waiting? That doesn't seem like the best approach. Should I then dig the trench first, and hold off running any cable in the sleepout until the trench is ready? Or is there some way to join the cables coming in from the trench to the cabling inside the sleepout?

4. The sparky said the trench needs to be 300mm deep. Is that right? How wide should I aim for? Any tips on good trench digging technique or tools to make it easier?

5. Any advice for making sure where the cables enter the house/sleepout are weathertight? Is there some kind of product which is recommended for making sure water doesn't get in?

6. Is there any issue running ethernet cable next to power cable in the walls? I'm guessing not, but thought it worth checking.

raytaylor

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#2778525 15-Sep-2021 00:03

Normal process is wiring first with flush boxes screwed to the frame, ceiling and drywall gib goes up with holes cut at the flushboxes by whoever puts up the gib, sparky returns to terminate the cables and install wall plates.

Regarding your carpet.

In my opinion, carpet will feel much warmer than laminate. I have seen a great idea in a home for disabled kids where they have laminate flooring, but have a large mat made of carpet to the exact size and shape of the room. If an occupant ever damages the carpet, they just roll it up and order another "room shape 3" from the carpet supplier that stores copies of their building templates, and place it down before the new occupant moves their furniture in.

Lizard1977:

1. What kind of conduit would be recommended to lay in the trench? Total length is around 15m, so I'm guessing I'll need to join several lengths. What should I use to join the lengths?

Go to ideal electrical and ask for 25mm marley rigid conduit.
Part number - item
01.25HD.GY - 4 metre length straight conduit with one end flared so they join together
10.25G or 19.25G - wall saddle
12.25G or more preferred 12A.25.90G - 90degree bend
21.25G - wall entry box, allows you to bring the cable up the duct, into the box and through a hole in the back of it to go into the wall

Personally I prefer 32mm diameter conduit but if you are only runnning 3x data cables then 25mm should be fine. Same part numbers just replace 25 with 32

Ideal electrical, or any electrical shop, will have a whole shelf full of marley conduit components, bends, sizes of pipes, adapters etc.

Lizard1977:

2. What kind of ducting would be recommended for fixing to the side of the house? Presumably, it needs to be UV protected?

See part numbers above. Its UV stable.

Ray Taylor

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#2778526 15-Sep-2021 00:04

Lizard1977:

3. If we're not digging the trench before we run the cables in the sleepout, would we just have the run of ethernet cable sitting outside ready and waiting? That doesn't seem like the best approach. Should I then dig the trench first, and hold off running any cable in the sleepout until the trench is ready? Or is there some way to join the cables coming in from the trench to the cabling inside the sleepout?

Make sure you run the cables inside the walls from the outlets before the gib goes up. Drill a hole on the outside wall of the sleepout and poke the cables out with at least 30cm hanging there on the outside wall.

When it comes time to duct them over to the house, place a box over the hole that is at least 120mm by 120mm in size. Ideal sell these but depends upon the store and what brand they carry. Just say you need to create an "external demarcation box for some cat6 cables which will hold 30 scotckloks" and the person in the store should be able to recommend one. You will need more space inside the box than the marley part number above.

You drill a 25mm hole through the back of the box for the wall hole. Then another hole in the bottom of the box for the cable duct entry from the ground/trench.
Use marley part numbers
locknut 09.25G and
flare adapter 05.25G
to create a flare on the bottom of the box for the duct to enter.

Inside the external wall box, you join the cables using 3M scotchloks - part number UY2 or UR. As long as they are yellow and not red.
Ideal sell these in boxes of 100 for about $10
The other way is to use a punch down block / cable joiner but the 3M scotchloks will be easier, not require any special tools and will still maintain ethernet spec if you use average-to-good cable.

Ray Taylor

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#2778527 15-Sep-2021 00:05

Lizard1977:

4. The sparky said the trench needs to be 300mm deep. Is that right? How wide should I aim for? Any tips on good trench digging technique or tools to make it easier?

No legal requirement for telecommunications depth. Only power needs to be 60cm deep.
Best practice is to be at least 30cm deep. Your goal is to protect it from garden implements, animals and potential damage.

Mitre 10 sell a nice trench digging spade with a small face. You will probably also want a pick axe.
My favorite that i carry in my work ute i think is Mitre 10 SKU part number 320942 - its quite short - almost like a short persons spade, but works rather well as you can focus more force into a smaller area.

1) Put down a tarpaulin along the full length of the trench.

2) Cut squares of grass out and place them in order on the tarp so they can be reinstalled in the correct order afterwards.
Normally i start by cutting a square out in the middle of the trench, then walking backwards taking out small blocks, and placing them on the tarp. Then go back to the centre and extend the trench in the opposite direction.

3) Once you have cleanly removed the grass turf in large square clumps, then start digging down to the depth you want - again putting the soil on the tarpaulin separate from the turf clumps.

4) Pull/push the cables through the conduit, assemble it and then put the conduit into the trench.

5) Cover it using the soil from the tarp and then place the grass clumps back in place and stomp down or drive over with the car wheel. Rain and time will do most of the flattening. After a few months you wont notice the trench.

The width only needs to be as wide as the conduit, but you will probably find its easier to set the width as the spade.

Ray Taylor

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#2778528 15-Sep-2021 00:05

Lizard1977:

5. Any advice for making sure where the cables enter the house/sleepout are weathertight? Is there some kind of product which is recommended for making sure water doesn't get in?

Silicon sealant. You can never use too much. Mitre 10 SKU 370174 or 292856
Seal the hole through the wall and the back of the box that you attach to the wall.
If you need to smooth it off, wet or spit on your finger first before touching it.

Lizard1977:

6. Is there any issue running ethernet cable next to power cable in the walls? I'm guessing not, but thought it worth checking.

You need to stay ideally want to stay 30cm away from the power cable whenever it runs parallel.
So when the cable enters from the external demarcation box, it should go straight up to the attic or ceiling, then run across the ceiling then down the wall to the outlet.
If there is a power outlet near the ethernet outlet, then the cables come down the wall 30cm apart, and only come closer together when they get to the outlet.
The cables can go perpindicular or cross over, but avoid running parallel for any distance where they are closer than 30cm apart.
Also you dont run them horizontally between studs.

This applies also to your trench - if you are using the same trench for power and data then your power must be at 60cm deep so you can half fill it then lay data at 30cm deep allowing the 30cm of separation to be maintained.

High voltage magnetically inducts into the low voltage cable when they run parallel in close proximity.

Ray Taylor

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Lizard1977

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#2778628 15-Sep-2021 10:03

Thanks @raytaylor for such a comprehensive response. You've given me a lot of very helpful information, especially the part numbers for Ideal. That will make a big difference to scoping this project and getting the right gear.

With the 3M Scotchloks, I looked at a video on YT to understand how they work, but I just wanted to check. Are they used for joining each of the individual wires of the two ends of ethernet cable (i.e. blue to blue, blue/white to blue/white, etc) and just connected by punching down the Scotchlok (e.g. with a pair of pliers)? Do all the joined wires just sit loose in the demarcation box (maybe zip tied together for neatness), or is there something else to do to keep it from looking like a rats nest? With three cable runs, and 8 wires per cable, I could imagine that demarcation box looking kind of messy.

raytaylor

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#2778672 15-Sep-2021 11:14

Lizard1977:

With the 3M Scotchloks,

Yes you straighten and insert the two wires (one from each cable, of the same color) and press down with a pair of pliers. It pierces the wire insulation with a couple of pins and cross connects between the two wires. 3M would prefer you to use their special tool, but a pair of large pliers, locking pliers or vice grips work just fine.

Yes it will be a little messy inside. Keep the wires twisted together as much as possible. Avoid pulling stress on the wires.

Two other ways to do it

1) Punch down joiner ideal part CDYAPDC6 or CDYAPDC5E
Requires a punching tool $50+

2) Keystone RJ45-to-RJ45 joiner part CDYARJ45C6N
Just put an RJ45 plug on each cable, then join them together
Requires a crimping tool.

Personally I like the scotchloks because they have dielectric grease inside them. This keeps the wires entirely waterproof so if any moisture does get into the cable or duct, it wont corrode the metal connector pins at the joints on a punchdown joiner or the rj45 joiner.

Ray Taylor

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dimsim

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#2778764 15-Sep-2021 13:43

I've used a linbide scraper to remove glue like that before. Those tungsten blades rip through it pretty easily.

Fred99

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#2778814 15-Sep-2021 15:31

50mm SDS chisel bit on a rotary hammer drill might also do the trick - quickly.

Lizard1977

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#2778817 15-Sep-2021 15:32

Thanks for those suggestions. We've found the heat gun to be pretty effective so far.

Lizard1977

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#2779566 16-Sep-2021 20:40

Now for gib-stopping.

I understand a lot of gib products are thin on the ground at the moment, so I'm looking to get my hands on whatever will be suitable for our project. We have just four walls to gib, about 12-14m2 all up. Would this product (apparently in stock at my local Mitre 10) be suitable, and how much would I need?

elpenguino

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#2779570 16-Sep-2021 20:58

Lizard1977:

Now for gib-stopping.

I understand a lot of gib products are thin on the ground at the moment, so I'm looking to get my hands on whatever will be suitable for our project. We have just four walls to gib, about 12-14m2 all up. Would this product (apparently in stock at my local Mitre 10) be suitable, and how much would I need?

No.

That's a finishing product by the sound of it ("very easy to sand"). You start with the stuff like this .

A big bag is (was) ~$25 and it tends to absorb moisture so it's best to start with a new bag rather than a hand me down from someone's garage.

If you're a DIYer then get the stuff with a longer time ~60 mins or so. Apply judiciously - it's easier to add more than sand a whole lot off.

If you use the finishing stuff then it takes ages to dry. Even more so if you use it thickly - like 2 days if you apply 10 mm of it.

If you apply carefully then the sanding at the end is more to remove tool marks than to level things out.

Re cable jointing.

Jointing can be avoided if you've trenched but you're not quite ready to wire your sleep out yet (or the other way round).

Just tape/seal the ends of the cables, coil them up and leave them in a plastic bag or two out of the weather.

All the other advice is spot on.

Did someone mention you can get outdoor Ethernet cable for this purpose? It will survive the moist environment of the conduit/trench better.

If you can get underneath the sleepout, see if can come up through bottom of the wall rather than go in from the outside.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

elpenguino

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#2779571 16-Sep-2021 21:01

To answer your question how much to buy, it comes in 5 and 20 kg bags. You'll probably buy a small because it's 'just one room' but then find it isn't quite enough and then need 1/0th of another bag to finish off.

The cost of the two small bags will be as much as 20kg would have been.

Don't ask me how I know. :-)

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

Lizard1977

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#2779573 16-Sep-2021 21:04

Thanks for that. It looks like the 90min product might be available at Bunnings.

It says ideal for first and second coats. What would I use for the third and final coat?

Lizard1977

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#2779574 16-Sep-2021 21:06

Can't get underneath the sleepout as it's a concrete floor, so a side-entry is necessary. As for outdoor ethernet, I've been supplied with 100m of Cat6, which I hope will be okay.

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