Panasonic vs Mitsubishi ducted heat pump and ventilation solutions

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2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3308737 13-Nov-2024 18:16

timbosan:
Might be semantics but I thought Zhender are mechanical ventilation (as in the MVHR designation you used) whereas Lossnay wasn't? Happy to be corrected!

BTW thanks for answering the question - and good note on "opening windows" - this is not a good idea if your aim to control moisture, pollutants, temperature, etc.

its just lingo. any ventilation system with a fan is "mechanical ventilation" regardless of type. so Lossnay is mechanical ventilation.

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3308741 13-Nov-2024 18:20

AlDrag:

Ok I just got some quotes for the Panasonic ducted with EneKan and their basic zone control. Honestly, doesn't seem to be that much cheaper than Mitsubishi despite their initial "claims".

Maybe you guys can help me, here's a floor plan of my top floor with annotations from one of the aircon companies.

I assume I should have intake vents in the opposite diagonal corner of the bedroom doors? Should I also have Lossnay/EneKan returns in the bathrooms?

having the lossnay returns in the bathrooms is good, constant ventilation in a wet area awesome. however you need to look at if your going to go HRV or ERV.

also how will you get ventilation air downstairs? whats under the wardrobe?

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3308742 13-Nov-2024 18:25

AlDrag:

i would go put some insulation in there. add another layer is a very common and pretty cheap upgrade to do.

AlDrag

247 posts

Master Geek

#3308743 13-Nov-2024 18:35

tweake:

having the lossnay returns in the bathrooms is good, constant ventilation in a wet area awesome. however you need to look at if your going to go HRV or ERV.

also how will you get ventilation air downstairs? whats under the wardrobe?

Definitely ERV, seems like the way to go.

I'm going to just duct for upstairs. Downstairs will be covered by the existing 6kw heatpump. The living area is fully open plan and the only other area is a connected garage and hallway/entrance, so not really a problem.

I would LOVE to duct the entire house, but it'll cost a lot I imagine and they'd probably have to pull apart a lot of walls/ceiling panels or something.

tweak:
i would go put some insulation in there. add another layer is a very common and pretty cheap upgrade to do.

That's a great idea! Might get my Dad to help me do it. At least it's something I can do down the line.

AlDrag

247 posts

Master Geek

#3308744 13-Nov-2024 18:35

tweake:
its not that positive pressure isn't ideal, its that the house are not good enough to be worth using better. (i'm not sure on how old your house is but nz insulation only caught up to bare minimum in the last few years.)

The house only just got built, so up to 2024 minimum standards (Fletchers build, so probably didn't go beyond minimum, but who knows. I know at least the STC for the interconnected wall of the other property is definitely higher than minimum).

timmmay

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#3308755 13-Nov-2024 19:17

AlDrag:

Ok I just got some quotes for the Panasonic ducted with EneKan and their basic zone control. Honestly, doesn't seem to be that much cheaper than Mitsubishi despite their initial "claims".

Maybe you guys can help me, here's a floor plan of my top floor with annotations from one of the aircon companies.

I assume I should have intake vents in the opposite diagonal corner of the bedroom doors? Should I also have Lossnay/EneKan returns in the bathrooms?

Now my dilemma is figuring out how to cool/heat that "Office Desk Space" next to the stairs. It's a landing above the stairs with a wall at about 1.5m high. Maybe I should have the return vent at the top of the stairs? Any ideas? I've had 2 different solutions for it from these companies.

Edit: And yes, on the right wall, next to the stairs, that's a big ass window that faces the east.

Why would you put ceiling outlets in the middle of the room? Possibly because they're using cheap, relatively ineffective circular diffusers that push air out along the ceiling. I wouldn't use anyone who used those. They can be ok if the air is drawn across the room out a vent near the floor, but a duffuser that pushes air towards the floor is much better. They would go the opposite side of the room from the vent - which doesn't have to be the door, ours are in the walls. You can get door or wall vents.

I'm not sure how you're going to heat your desk. It sounds like it's pretty open, top of the stairs, some heat will come up if the downstairs heating is on. Maybe a fan heater?

AlDrag

247 posts

Master Geek

#3308756 13-Nov-2024 19:37

timmmay:
Why would you put ceiling outlets in the middle of the room? Possibly because they're using cheap, relatively ineffective circular diffusers that push air out along the ceiling. I wouldn't use anyone who used those. They can be ok if the air is drawn across the room out a vent near the floor, but a duffuser that pushes air towards the floor is much better. They would go the opposite side of the room from the vent - which doesn't have to be the door, ours are in the walls. You can get door or wall vents.

I'm not sure how you're going to heat your desk. It sounds like it's pretty open, top of the stairs, some heat will come up if the downstairs heating is on. Maybe a fan heater?

I'm not sure why the diagram shows the outlets like that. But when I talked to the guy in person after receiving this plan electronically, he stated it would be in the corners, I just need to choose where.

Based on your advice, I've asked what diffusers they are going to use, so will see what the say.

Yea that desk area is a tricky one :'(
Maybe it won't be that bad though. I have the window there for sun heat and in summer maybe if I move the vent near the stairs, the cool air from the bedrooms will rush over me? Maybe I should put an intake in the hallway too? Ugh tricky.

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tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3308761 13-Nov-2024 19:56

AlDrag:

tweak:
i would go put some insulation in there. add another layer is a very common and pretty cheap upgrade to do.

That's a great idea! Might get my Dad to help me do it. At least it's something I can do down the line.

well worth doing, it will save far more energy than the ventilation system will.

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3308766 13-Nov-2024 20:07

AlDrag:

Definitely ERV, seems like the way to go.

I'm going to just duct for upstairs. Downstairs will be covered by the existing 6kw heatpump. The living area is fully open plan and the only other area is a connected garage and hallway/entrance, so not really a problem.

I would LOVE to duct the entire house, but it'll cost a lot I imagine and they'd probably have to pull apart a lot of walls/ceiling panels or something.

it would be good to get some ventilation downstairs. if under the wardrobe is above a ceiling, then you could put a duct down the corner of the wardrobe.

ERV, while the best, comes with caveats. ERV keeps inside moisture in (and outside moisture out). normally you would have a whole house dehumidifier built into the system as well to maintain the humidity level. those bath room returns will dump all that shower moisture into the inside of the house. at the very least you will need some form of monitoring. you might get away with air leakage and range hood doing all the drying.

another reason i would try to do a ventilation outlet downstairs. you need to use the whole house air volume to absorb that moisture rather than just the bedrooms.

also not a bad idea to have hvac duct downstairs just to get some air circulation.

timmmay

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#3308782 13-Nov-2024 20:45

Another thing... I have just under 100 home assistant automations for my ducted heat pump, which covers lounge and three bedrooms. There's lots of basic on / off automations for different areas at different times of the year, some for preventing spill being a problem, some direct damper position manipulation to prevent overheating the spill zone, a half dozen to notify me of things like heat spilling into the bedrooms in summer because I forgot to switch the spill zone back after I had changed it for cooling.

My office high wall has about 15 automations, it's much more basic on / off type automations. Ducted heat pumps can be complex.. especially if you want things to work exactly the way you want them to work and have most things automated. I suspect I have more than most people would though.

AlDrag

247 posts

Master Geek

#3308874 14-Nov-2024 10:12

timmmay:

Another thing... I have just under 100 home assistant automations for my ducted heat pump, which covers lounge and three bedrooms. There's lots of basic on / off automations for different areas at different times of the year, some for preventing spill being a problem, some direct damper position manipulation to prevent overheating the spill zone, a half dozen to notify me of things like heat spilling into the bedrooms in summer because I forgot to switch the spill zone back after I had changed it for cooling.

My office high wall has about 15 automations, it's much more basic on / off type automations. Ducted heat pumps can be complex.. especially if you want things to work exactly the way you want them to work and have most things automated. I suspect I have more than most people would though.

I use Home Assistant and very much into that sort of thing! So plan on exploring it.

AlDrag

247 posts

Master Geek

#3309264 15-Nov-2024 09:56

Got quoted for 13.5k for Mitsubishi 5/6kw, Airtouch5, Lossnay, 4 intakes, 2 lossnay returns in the bathroom (may change this), 1 return and a stand for the outdoor unit above the existing one to avoid it being mounted to the wall 😢

timmmay

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#3309388 15-Nov-2024 14:28

AlDrag:

Got quoted for 13.5k for Mitsubishi 5/6kw, Airtouch5, Lossnay, 4 intakes, 2 lossnay returns in the bathroom (may change this), 1 return and a stand for the outdoor unit above the existing one to avoid it being mounted to the wall 😢

That's a good price I reckon! I paid something like that for Daikin 10kw, five outlets in four rooms, one return vent, Airtouch4. You have a smaller outdoor unit, which should be fine, plus the Lossnay for about what I paid.

Do you have 4 intakes or 4 outlets?

I thought Lossnay inlets went into the bathroom as an extractor, but I don't know much about them as I have a basic positive pressure system. Does the Lossnay work when the ducted system is off, or only when it's turned on?

AlDrag

247 posts

Master Geek

#3309390 15-Nov-2024 14:35

timmmay:

That's a good price I reckon! I paid something like that for Daikin 10kw, five outlets in four rooms, one return vent, Airtouch4. You have a smaller outdoor unit, which should be fine, plus the Lossnay for about what I paid.

Do you have 4 intakes or 4 outlets?

I thought Lossnay inlets went into the bathroom as an extractor, but I don't know much about them as I have a basic positive pressure system. Does the Lossnay work when the ducted system is off, or only when it's turned on?

I should have stated that this includes R1.0 ducting and a stand of some sort to mount the outdoor unit above the existing one (if I decide to not put it on the side of the house).

Oh I guess they're called "outlets" then?

Yea I read about putting Lossnay inlets into the bathroom as an extractor as a great idea to reduce condensation and return heat, but I guess the existing extractor fans for the bathrooms can serve that purpose (although you lose heat).

Hmmmmm I think Lossnay only works through the ducted system...I could be wrong though, but I think I heard it's always running.

AlDrag

247 posts

Master Geek

#3309391 15-Nov-2024 14:39

Oh and this is the default outlet they use https://smooth-air.co.nz/pycd200

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