Panasonic vs Mitsubishi ducted heat pump and ventilation solutions

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2391 posts

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#3309531 16-Nov-2024 10:00

AlDrag:

an option here is to put a small duct down the bed3 closet on the hallway side. that should come out above the kitchen bench. its not ideal but it should bring ventilation air to downstairs by tapping off the loosnay. you could use it as a spill zone, but i'll let others discuss that. that way the ventilation is spread over the whole house. it will also help a little bit by moving a little bit heating/cooling from the downstairs heat pump into the hallway and stairs.

tweake

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#3309533 16-Nov-2024 10:10

Kickinbac:

I should have said BDT don’t recommend their Lossnay ERV for extraction from wet areas. I don’t why they say this but I suspect that they have had an issue with their paper core heat exchangers. I haven’t got to anyone at BDT that can give me a good explanation.
I have paper core Lossnay in my house and have taken out the core a couple of times and can’t see any issues. I put a paper core Lossnay in my parents house about 12 years ago and it’s fine, it’s the only one I’ve been able to monitor long term.

i highly doubt its a core issue. far more likely its a salesperson and customer expectation issue. because they are selling ERV's without telling people its keeps indoor moisture in the house, ie its does not dry the house like typical ventilation. hence the need for dehumidification, which increases the price and scares off customers.

even tho moisture from bathroom is sweet stuff all (very easily absorbed by the houses air volume) BDT are probably doing a work around to keep the risk down. they don't want to be blamed for a house turning into a mold factory because a sales person over sold a system and neglected to inform the clients or design it properly. so props to BDT, but its something they shouldn't have to do and it makes them look like idiots.

timmmay

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#3309626 16-Nov-2024 11:59

Regarding heat pump size you mentioned earlier, don't upsize it. Bedrooms don't need to be super hot, oversized creates more spill. Undersize you just turn it on a little earlier, maybe it won't reach 24 degrees on the very coldest days but bedrooms you only want at 21 at most, probably less.

tweake

2391 posts

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#3309631 16-Nov-2024 12:25

speaking of sizing, i see op is in auckland. so sizes are most likely oversized a fair bit already (i havn't accounted for window sizes and direction). i have a similar size heat pump in the lounge for a similar area, but i'm single glazing and air leaky. i think it would be best to make some circulation so the whole house gets heated/cooled and use that oversizing.

also if you want quiet operation in the lounge, i would recommend a ceiling fan. thats gives circulation so the heat pump dosn't have run the fan full speed to get decent circulation.

AlDrag

247 posts

Master Geek

#3309722 16-Nov-2024 16:23

I am in Auckland, I should have stated that sorry.

Ok so I assume Lossnay can be integrated later without too much work. And it sounds like zones is pretty important for ducting.

So I think I'm going to lock in getting the 5kw (cooling)/6kw (heating) Mitsubishi PEAD 50 with 4 outlets (1 each bedroom and 1 in the hallway) and get Airtouch 5. Not sure if it's worth putting outlets in the bathrooms as well? (please let me know!).

If we feel like we are lacking ventilation and opening the windows for 10 mins a day isn't enough, then we will get Lossnay. Lossnay is quoted about 2.9k for my house with the LV-220.

Not sure what @tweake mean's about taking advantage of circulating the top unit around the house? (Unless you just mean the bottom unit with a ceiling fan). Maybe you mean by positoning the extraction outlet somewhere?

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3309727 16-Nov-2024 16:44

AlDrag:

I am in Auckland, I should have stated that sorry.

Ok so I assume Lossnay can be integrated later without too much work. And it sounds like zones is pretty important for ducting.

So I think I'm going to lock in getting the 5kw (cooling)/6kw (heating) Mitsubishi PEAD 50 with 4 outlets (1 each bedroom and 1 in the hallway) and get Airtouch 5. Not sure if it's worth putting outlets in the bathrooms as well? (please let me know!).

If we feel like we are lacking ventilation and opening the windows for 10 mins a day isn't enough, then we will get Lossnay. Lossnay is quoted about 2.9k for my house with the LV-220.

bathrooms always want extraction. if you blow supply into a bathroom guess where all the smell goes.

ventilation, 10 min a day does nothing. i even tried leaving all windows and ranch slider open for hours. also used to leave windows open all day. still worse than mechanical ventilation (positive pressure in my case). i'm a big fan of mechanical ventilation, it simply works better than opening windows.

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3309728 16-Nov-2024 16:46

AlDrag:

Lossnay is quoted about 2.9k for my house with the LV-220.

check that it includes a separate filter box. sales people love to leave that out to make it look cheap. i think the build show should have a video out soon about that.

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timmmay

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#3309729 16-Nov-2024 16:49

I suspect adding the Lossnay will cost significantly more than getting it at the time the ducted system is installed. Best check with the installer. I wouldn't want to live in a house without a ventilation system, but I don't much mind if it's a basic positive pressure run on a timer or a fancy one like the Lossnay.

You don't need a ducted system outlet in the bathroom, like tweake said it'll let smells and moisture out. If it's cold get a wall mounted heater, though they can be loud.

What's your plan to get the air out of the bedrooms? Undercut the doors a few cm, or grills? I suggest grills, they help keep noise and light out and allow air movement. Locate them opposite corner from the supply diffuser, can be in a door or a wall - consider the visuals.

tweake

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#3309731 16-Nov-2024 16:55

AlDrag:

Not sure what @tweake mean's about taking advantage of circulating the top unit around the house? (Unless you just mean the bottom unit with a ceiling fan). Maybe you mean by positoning the extraction outlet somewhere?

the bottom story has no ventilation. if you can get a duct down there, fresh air downstairs is never a bad thing, that also helps move some of the heat from the lounge down the hallway, up the stairs and to the return. that helps spread the heat out especially as that downstairs heat pump looks a tad oversized. its not a lot but it can help heat the hallway so your not walking from nice warm room to a cool hallway then up to a warm room again.

AlDrag

247 posts

Master Geek

#3309739 16-Nov-2024 17:51

Ok so instead of outlets in the bathrooms, is Lossnay extractors in the bathroom a good idea?

Is the separate filter box a lossnay thing? I'll try google it.

I assume you mean a lossnay outlet (not an extractor) down to the ground floor to feed in fresh air? Not a heatpump duct?
What about if I went through the other room's wardrobe? And thus the vent would be on the opposite wall of the kitchen instead?

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3309764 16-Nov-2024 19:07

AlDrag: Ok so instead of outlets in the bathrooms, is Lossnay extractors in the bathroom a good idea?

Is the separate filter box a lossnay thing? I'll try google it.

I assume you mean a lossnay outlet (not an extractor) down to the ground floor to feed in fresh air? Not a heatpump duct?
What about if I went through the other room's wardrobe? And thus the vent would be on the opposite wall of the kitchen instead?

filter box, watch this https://youtu.be/gRKtxpxsaXc?t=585

yes, lossnay extractors in the bathrooms.

yes, install lossnay outlet downstairs. it could go down bed2 wardrobe. i don't normally like vents above seating but its air output will be warm so not all that noticeable. also with the right vent the airflow will go across the ceiling. the other loosnay outlet goes to the ducted heat pump return.

timmmay

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#3309768 16-Nov-2024 19:43

The ducting could be 200 mm wide, you could lose the use of a chunk of your wardrobe. This may have a low wife acceptance factor.

tweake

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#3309774 16-Nov-2024 20:15

timmmay: The ducting could be 200 mm wide, you could lose the use of a chunk of your wardrobe. This may have a low wife acceptance factor.

150mm would do it, you can also use rectangular in the wardrobe, if you can fit the transition in the floor. the length should not be long, y split in the ceiling above. its also the kids wardrobe, the master bedroom is above the garage.

speaking of garages, make sure the big door isn't to tight. you want to make sure you get ventilation in the garage. nothing like a wet warm car to drop a big load of moisture in the garage and it all goes up.

AlDrag

247 posts

Master Geek

#3309785 16-Nov-2024 21:51

tweake:

filter box, watch this https://youtu.be/gRKtxpxsaXc?t=585

I'm not sure how to relate that to Lossnay, as it sounds like this is a separate feature from Lossnay?
It looks like for Lossnay, you have the option of different filter inserts depending on the type/amount of filtering you want.

Ducting through the top-left room warddrobe is potentially an option, and funnily enough you guessed it right, it most likely is going to be our toddler's room. Not super ideal ducting through the warddrobe though, as this house is small enough as it is and we need all the space we can get. But I can probably live with a reduction of 150mm.

tweake

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Uber Geek

#3309822 17-Nov-2024 09:37

AlDrag:

I'm not sure how to relate that to Lossnay, as it sounds like this is a separate feature from Lossnay?
It looks like for Lossnay, you have the option of different filter inserts depending on the type/amount of filtering you want.

its part of the system (as shown in the video) but sold separately, like ducts, outlets returns etc. the air cleaning filters and box do not come with loosnay and is often left out to make it cheaper (but causes problems)

the problem with using filters in the erv is they are small, low filtration, clog up quick and some manufactures use custom sizes so your stuck with their prices and availability. the erv filter is only there to protect the core, thats all. manufactures have tried to make it "all in one" by putting better filters in but that causes issues. notice the difference in size of the filters in the video, the finer the filter the bigger it needs to be.

its also worth looking at if you might want to get carbon filters (eg it removes neighbors cooking smells). you would need a dual filter box. after all the whole point of all this is to supply clean air.

part of the story behind the first part of the video is matt originally never had the pre filter box. but his Zehnder erv filters where clogging up fast. those zehnder filters are non-standard filters $$$. also he added a 2nd filter box because those erv filters are not fine enough. so now he has 3 filters. the 2nd half of the video shows a better way to do it where he has stock protection filters on the erv and all the air cleaning is done by one filter on the inlet. so only one filter ever needs changing and its a stock standard size.

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