Panasonic vs Mitsubishi ducted heat pump and ventilation solutions

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247 posts

Master Geek

#3310336 18-Nov-2024 20:00

I just realised, on the ground floor, we also have a laundry thing that connects to the kitchen, sort of like a weird butler pantry thing? That has an extraction vent there which I assume goes to the attic (I will need to check), maybe I can turn that into a lossnay return too! We have a heatpump dryer, so won't produce that much heat though, but maybe a nice idea. Maybe it's a bad idea though haha. Maybe it messes up the air cycling throughout the house or something.

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3310349 18-Nov-2024 20:30

AlDrag:

I just realised, on the ground floor, we also have a laundry thing that connects to the kitchen, sort of like a weird butler pantry thing? That has an extraction vent there which I assume goes to the attic (I will need to check), maybe I can turn that into a lossnay return too! We have a heatpump dryer, so won't produce that much heat though, but maybe a nice idea. Maybe it's a bad idea though haha. Maybe it messes up the air cycling throughout the house or something.

i wound check what that is and where it goes.

if its a bath fan then it could be connected to loosnay return. however i dislike constant extraction where there is no air supply to it. as the air usually wants to go up (the stairs), the fan would suck air in through the building envelope all the time. especially with a garage (make sure that internal garage door is a sealed door). i would only use it as a loosnay return if you could get the ventilation duct down to that floor.

AlDrag

247 posts

Master Geek

#3310350 18-Nov-2024 20:39

tweake
i wound check what that is and where it goes.

if its a bath fan then it could be connected to loosnay return. however i dislike constant extraction where there is no air supply to it. as the air usually wants to go up (the stairs), the fan would suck air in through the building envelope all the time. especially with a garage (make sure that internal garage door is a sealed door). i would only use it as a loosnay return if you could get the ventilation duct down to that floor.

Thought that might be the case. It makes sense. I know the garage door to the outside is a hollow core type. I guess I could always put some draft stopper under the garage internal door to avoid drafts.

Anyway. At the end of the day, this isn't our last house and I ain't getting this money back when I sell it haha. So maybe this is all "good enough".

AlDrag

247 posts

Master Geek

#3313380 27-Nov-2024 12:06

Ok so here's another hopefully almost "final" plan for the ducted system.

They are going to install the outdoor unit on a stand above the existing one in the backyard patio, to avoid having it bolted to the cladding (don't want to introduce vibration noise). Stand is here https://www.monkeytoe.co.nz/unit-stacker-mount-up-to-120kg/

Still not sure about exact placement of outlets in the bedrooms, but I can probably just decide that on the day with their installers, as it's subject to space in the attic. I also will decide on the return grille location as well with them on the day. I'm just concerned about the open office area. I need that to be covered by the ducting.

They stated I need to keep the bathroom extractor fans. Can't repurpose them to be lossnay extractors, so need both. I get it. So need to decide if it's worth it. Honestly, maybe not.
So I need to decide whether I do the fresh air duct to the ground floor with the bathroom lossnay extractors, or just forgo lossnay extractors/outlets altogether and rely on its integration with the ducted system for the upstairs only. I am also thinking having the lossnay freshair over the kitchen instead of the living area. As that could catch moisture from boiling etc, but I'm worried oil residue will make its way to the ducting?

I'm gonna get the extra lossnay bypass damper. Thank you whoever pointed that out. I would have never known.

So going to have all the bells and whistles. Airtouch, mitsubishi, lossnay. Maybe overkill, but I think it'll be worth it and hopefully will never have to stress about it again.

I want the attic space as storage and the installer said it would cut their install time from 2 days to 1 day if I had attic stairs, so might try get that done first.

Any advice?

Ground floor

Floor 1

timmmay

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#3313386 27-Nov-2024 12:35

I've had two ducted system installed by two different companies, four rooms with five outlets, with ceiling stairs. Both took about 1.5 days with varying numbers of people between four initially then yep. A one day install with heat pump, diffuser installation, lossnay, sounds like a rushed job to me.

AlDrag

247 posts

Master Geek

#3313401 27-Nov-2024 13:32

timmmay: I've had two ducted system installed by two different companies, four rooms with five outlets, with ceiling stairs. Both took about 1.5 days with varying numbers of people between four initially then yep. A one day install with heat pump, diffuser installation, lossnay, sounds like a rushed job to me.

I guess I'll have to wait and see then if that becomes true haha...

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3313470 27-Nov-2024 17:27

AlDrag:

They stated I need to keep the bathroom extractor fans. Can't repurpose them to be lossnay extractors, so need both. I get it. So need to decide if it's worth it. Honestly, maybe not.
So I need to decide whether I do the fresh air duct to the ground floor with the bathroom lossnay extractors, or just forgo lossnay extractors/outlets altogether and rely on its integration with the ducted system for the upstairs only. I am also thinking having the lossnay freshair over the kitchen instead of the living area. As that could catch moisture from boiling etc, but I'm worried oil residue will make its way to the ducting?

you don't have to keep the bathroom fans. no legal requirement to do so, even if it was done during construction. with bath rooms, you can have bath fans or constant airflow ventilation. either is allowed. if i remember right you where looking a the HRV core which will do drying as per normal. in actual use i doubt you will ever turn the bath fans on. i suspect they just don't want the extra hassle.

the lossnay downstairs (assuming you can even get a duct through the floor/ceiling) is outlets only. so oil etc should not make its way up the ducting as they should be blowing air out all the time. the downstairs one is also 50% of the total ventilation airflow. i would normally recommend to keep it away from seating areas to reduce noise. however the suggested location is better for air flows (as the air will exit via the hallway and up the stairs).

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AlDrag

247 posts

Master Geek

#3313478 27-Nov-2024 18:03

tweake:
you don't have to keep the bathroom fans. no legal requirement to do so, even if it was done during construction. with bath rooms, you can have bath fans or constant airflow ventilation. either is allowed. if i remember right you where looking a the HRV core which will do drying as per normal. in actual use i doubt you will ever turn the bath fans on. i suspect they just don't want the extra hassle.

the lossnay downstairs (assuming you can even get a duct through the floor/ceiling) is outlets only. so oil etc should not make its way up the ducting as they should be blowing air out all the time. the downstairs one is also 50% of the total ventilation airflow. i would normally recommend to keep it away from seating areas to reduce noise. however the suggested location is better for air flows (as the air will exit via the hallway and up the stairs).

Right. I guess there's no negatives keeping the bathroom fans? Except just extra vents on the ceiling. (and I guess slightly less ceiling insulation).

I had no idea that it would be that much airflow. I guess because it's the extractor fan pulling in more from the outlet downstairs?
In that case, maybe above the kitchen bench is better (so duct will be through the southern bedroom wardrobe)

Come to think of it, would a lossnay extraction vent be a bad idea in the ensuite bathroom? Because that means the aircon outlet in that bedroom will be pulled towards the bathroom instead of the main extractor grille? Lossnay vents outside thus less efficient?

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3313495 27-Nov-2024 20:32

AlDrag: Right. I guess there's no negatives keeping the bathroom fans? Except just extra vents on the ceiling. (and I guess slightly less ceiling insulation).

I had no idea that it would be that much airflow. I guess because it's the extractor fan pulling in more from the outlet downstairs?
In that case, maybe above the kitchen bench is better (so duct will be through the southern bedroom wardrobe)

Come to think of it, would a lossnay extraction vent be a bad idea in the ensuite bathroom? Because that means the aircon outlet in that bedroom will be pulled towards the bathroom instead of the main extractor grille? Lossnay vents outside thus less efficient?

no major negatives in leaving the bath fans, normally looks a bit better to have just one "fan". i would just reuse the fan hole for the ventilation vent. only think to check is if the fan is wired to the lights. you really want it wired separate so it doesn't run when you turn the lights on or any other auto modes. you want to have to manually turn it on. that way you can still use it if you want to. if the lossnay is setup right i see no need to run the bath fans ever.

the ventilation air flows is roughly based on volume of the spaces. downstairs and upstairs are roughly equal so ventilation air will be split roughly 50/50. easy config is to take the lossnay outlet and fit a Y connector, on branch goes downstairs and the other goes to the heat pump ducts. downstairs will have a bit more restriction with the vent and duct, which is fine as downstairs is a bit smaller due to the garage. easy enough to tune.

the kitchen range hood is left out of all this. no idea on its size, ducting etc and house leakage. the lossnay will help a bit but i would not do anything special for it.

keep in mind ventilation airflow is really small. i have 50% of my ventilation air in my lounge (as the lounge is the same size as all the bedrooms put together) and its no big deal.

lossnay return in the ensuite is perfectly fine. the bedroom aircon+ventilation air will go from bedroom to lossnay return, which is what you want. the actual air flow routes will be a tad complicated and it depends on the aircon fan speed. most of the airflow will go through the aircon return and a small amount will go through the lossnay returns.

AlDrag

247 posts

Master Geek

#3313505 27-Nov-2024 21:01

tweake:

no major negatives in leaving the bath fans, normally looks a bit better to have just one "fan". i would just reuse the fan hole for the ventilation vent. only think to check is if the fan is wired to the lights. you really want it wired separate so it doesn't run when you turn the lights on or any other auto modes. you want to have to manually turn it on. that way you can still use it if you want to. if the lossnay is setup right i see no need to run the bath fans ever.

the ventilation air flows is roughly based on volume of the spaces. downstairs and upstairs are roughly equal so ventilation air will be split roughly 50/50. easy config is to take the lossnay outlet and fit a Y connector, on branch goes downstairs and the other goes to the heat pump ducts. downstairs will have a bit more restriction with the vent and duct, which is fine as downstairs is a bit smaller due to the garage. easy enough to tune.

the kitchen range hood is left out of all this. no idea on its size, ducting etc and house leakage. the lossnay will help a bit but i would not do anything special for it.

keep in mind ventilation airflow is really small. i have 50% of my ventilation air in my lounge (as the lounge is the same size as all the bedrooms put together) and its no big deal.

lossnay return in the ensuite is perfectly fine. the bedroom aircon+ventilation air will go from bedroom to lossnay return, which is what you want. the actual air flow routes will be a tad complicated and it depends on the aircon fan speed. most of the airflow will go through the aircon return and a small amount will go through the lossnay returns.

Ok that gives me confidence in everything then.

It's not a big range hood, one of those ones that's integrated into the cabinet. It's loud as though, when I turned it on (settlement date is this Friday).

My only thing to figure out now is return vent location. Come to think of it, having it in the center of the hallway ruins my idea of using the attic as storage space....although maybe I can work around it.
I also need to figure out if I need an outlet in the hallway as a spillover. Ugh.

I've asked for a return vent of 750x550 to reduce noise. But maybe I should get a smaller one to take up less attic space and the fact maybe it's too big to fit between joists. Anyway, can figure that out on install day probably.

Almost locking it in.

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3313558 27-Nov-2024 21:10

biggest return you can so you can run big filters. even better if you can use deep filters ie 100mm thick filter instead of 25mm. but your going to be limited by truss spacing. odds are it will go across the hallway. so you may have to put it close to the office desk. otherwise you will need smaller returns but have the filter up in the attic, which is a pain for changing filters.

AlDrag

247 posts

Master Geek

#3313559 27-Nov-2024 21:14

tweake:

biggest return you can so you can run big filters. even better if you can use deep filters ie 100mm thick filter instead of 25mm. but your going to be limited by truss spacing. odds are it will go across the hallway. so you may have to put it close to the office desk. otherwise you will need smaller returns but have the filter up in the attic, which is a pain for changing filters.

Right. I assume that wouldn't be too noisy at low fan speed? (which is probably what I should be running most of the time) Like if I was in a meeting.

timmmay

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#3313562 27-Nov-2024 21:17

Our filter is cloth about 2mm thick, over the return that's about 1m X 0.8m. The filter is mounted into a frame that slides over the return vent. First and second installers used very similar systems. I can't imagine how that kind of filter could be 100mm thick. Is it a different kind?

Go for the largest return vent you can fit. This one is a bit larger than the first one and it's quite a bit quieter.

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3313904 28-Nov-2024 18:22

timmmay: Our filter is cloth about 2mm thick, over the return that's about 1m X 0.8m. The filter is mounted into a frame that slides over the return vent. First and second installers used very similar systems. I can't imagine how that kind of filter could be 100mm thick. Is it a different kind?

Go for the largest return vent you can fit. This one is a bit larger than the first one and it's quite a bit quieter.

standard hvac filter. tho thats the thicker size. 25mm thick ones are typically the most common. you can also get them in far better grades. g4 is really low, but probably miles better than what you have.

there is a couple of setups, one is to have the main big filter in the return panel. the other is to have a cloth/screen pre-filter on the return panel and the main filter in the hvac/aircon unit. a lot of common filters (overseas) are low spec filters so they don't catch much. they are more for stopping big stuff from getting into the ducts, instead of actually cleaning the air. you get what you pay for.

timmmay

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#3313911 28-Nov-2024 18:41

@tweake the only filter we have is what seems to be a filtered eggcrate grill. I'd like to have more of a filter inline, it gets a bit dusty here possibly because of the thick carpet, but getting it done would probably cost quite a bit. From memory the duct from the return grill is 400mm, the filters go that high but that places doesn't have filter boxes that size.

Our system failed yesterday. It turns on, but after 5 - 20 minutes the outdoor unit stops working. According to the Airtouch 4 screen there's some kind of a communications error between the indoor and outdoor unit or the outdoor and Airtouch unit. Our installer will come out next week to have a look. At least it's a fairly moderate time of year for a failure, it'd be more annoying middle of winter or middle of summer, but we use that thing most days of the year even if it's just to push ventilation air around.

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