Warm / Dry / Clean houses - how should it be done in NZ?

Forums › Home Workshop DIY › Warm / Dry / Clean houses - how should it be done in NZ?

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2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3109654 29-Jul-2023 19:41

clean as much of the stones out as you can, make it easier to get around. low spots may need digging out a bit so you can get under.

TheCross

18 posts

Geek

#3109659 29-Jul-2023 19:59

Pays to wear a mask too. Dust, mould and god knows what other fine particles are floating about, especially as you are stirring them up.

Plastic flexible containers are super handy under a house, or the garden bags made out of tarpaulin work really well too. Easy to fill up and drag around.

timbosan

2159 posts

Uber Geek

#3109664 29-Jul-2023 20:28

gzt: Expol polystyrene is a bit pita especially for old houses with no regular sizing. Been there. Never again. Staple in place foil batt blanket sandwich thing is the way to go.

Unfortunately people die in those tight spaces combined with electricity. It's not something to do lightly.

The problem is I don't think there enough room to actually get to the point of stappling. Hence the idea of levering expol type stuff, something I could get in place with a lever system or similar. I would rather not have to pull up the floors, so what other options exist?

timbosan

2159 posts

Uber Geek

#3109665 29-Jul-2023 20:29

TheCross: Pays to wear a mask too. Dust, mould and god knows what other fine particles are floating about, especially as you are stirring them up.

Plastic flexible containers are super handy under a house, or the garden bags made out of tarpaulin work really well too. Easy to fill up and drag around.

Oh yes I hear you! After about 10 mins I had to get the N95 masks out, lucky I still have them.

And great idea re the containers - I have a couple spare, thanks!

Bung

6477 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

#3109671 29-Jul-2023 21:29

Once you get rid of the rubbish it looks like you could have 400 - 500mm clearance parallel to the bearers. You can push some dirt sideways to give a bit more clearance mid bearer. I wore a pair of overalls with the back pockets removed. Your phone is likely to be more useful taking photos than calling anyone, I didn't get any signal under the house. Leaving your car keys and wallet in the house will stop you having to crawl about looking for them under the house.

timbosan

2159 posts

Uber Geek

#3121386 28-Aug-2023 21:40

timbosan:

gzt: Expol polystyrene is a bit pita especially for old houses with no regular sizing. Been there. Never again. Staple in place foil batt blanket sandwich thing is the way to go.

Unfortunately people die in those tight spaces combined with electricity. It's not something to do lightly.

The problem is I don't think there enough room to actually get to the point of stappling. Hence the idea of levering expol type stuff, something I could get in place with a lever system or similar. I would rather not have to pull up the floors, so what other options exist?

Hey all, so I have cleaned out most of the rubbish under the house, only thing left is a large concrete slab that won't fit between the posts so needs breaking up under the house. Once this is done I will lay the moisture barrier down, and then back to planning the insulation.

I have worked out I can easily access about 1/2 of the area, as it get to the point where I could either lie directly under the floorboards, or close enough that I could reach them. However that leaves the other half which is much closer to the ground.

@gzt mentioned a dislike for polystyrene foam, my plan was to create some sort of lever system to get this into the areas that I cannot reach. But if I don't go with polystyrene, what other options are there? I cannot figure out how to staple batts from a distance; I don't want to do spray foam; and I don't want to pull up the floorboards.

FYI this part of the house is newer than the original, its around 1950 and has different weatherboards, not sure if ithat is considered straighter?

Any ideas?

If there is no other option, what are the negatives with polystyrene, especially compared to no insulation?

Here is a view looking from the highest part of the "low" section, towards to the lowest part.

Ge0rge

2052 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3121389 28-Aug-2023 21:43

Have you any small offspring, or can you borrow one? I was often used when younger to run cables to eaves, or under houses, where the old man wouldn't fit.

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Handle9

11386 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3121436 28-Aug-2023 21:51

timbosan:

timbosan:

The problem is I don't think there enough room to actually get to the point of stappling. Hence the idea of levering expol type stuff, something I could get in place with a lever system or similar. I would rather not have to pull up the floors, so what other options exist?

Hey all, so I have cleaned out most of the rubbish under the house, only thing left is a large concrete slab that won't fit between the posts so needs breaking up under the house. Once this is done I will lay the moisture barrier down, and then back to planning the insulation.

I have worked out I can easily access about 1/2 of the area, as it get to the point where I could either lie directly under the floorboards, or close enough that I could reach them. However that leaves the other half which is much closer to the ground.

@gzt mentioned a dislike for polystyrene foam, my plan was to create some sort of lever system to get this into the areas that I cannot reach. But if I don't go with polystyrene, what other options are there? I cannot figure out how to staple batts from a distance; I don't want to do spray foam; and I don't want to pull up the floorboards.

FYI this part of the house is newer than the original, its around 1950 and has different weatherboards, not sure if ithat is considered straighter?

Any ideas?

If there is no other option, what are the negatives with polystyrene, especially compared to no insulation?

Here is a view looking from the highest part of the "low" section, towards to the lowest part.

It looks typically horrible under there but not impossible.

The problem with polystyrene and older houses is uneven joist spacing and it tends to fall out. I've been there and got the T-shirt. You can use blue plastic strapping to hold batts or polystyrene in place but it's not ideal.

If you absolutely can't get access to a section your only option is to lift the floor or leave that bit uninsulated. It's not ideal to have a spot that isn't insulated but it is what it is.

MikeAqua

7773 posts

Uber Geek

#3121579 29-Aug-2023 13:09

In our last house on piles we put in wool batts. They had a "poly?ester?" batting layer at the bottom, which was used to staple them to the framing. In that house the joists were about 1.2m off the ground (house was built by someone who was mayor at the time and had access to flooding risk maps). That was easy. First, I cleaned out the rubble. Then I put down black plastic and left it for summer for the framing to dry out, then got the wool batting in. The good thing

The house we own in the Wairau Valley, had bearer heights similar to those in the photos above. Same routine. I wriggled in and cleared out rubble. I made a long-handled rake and I'd clear an area before crawling across it and accessing the next 3m of rubble. It was a long dirty, difficult and claustrophobic job. In only removed stuff that would rip/block the black plastic.

Once the rubble was out, I ran cords from one side of the house to the other with an RC toy and used those to pull folded black plastic between the bearers. Then I could slide in easily, unfold the plastic, and join it with tape at seems and round the piles. Then I installed a product called AirCell. It's a bubble wrap/foil laminate. I believe it's since been prohibited because of the foil layer. Still available in Australia, though.

Mike

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3121654 29-Aug-2023 17:09

timbosan:

Hey all, so I have cleaned out most of the rubbish under the house, only thing left is a large concrete slab that won't fit between the posts so needs breaking up under the house. Once this is done I will lay the moisture barrier down, and then back to planning the insulation.

I have worked out I can easily access about 1/2 of the area, as it get to the point where I could either lie directly under the floorboards, or close enough that I could reach them. However that leaves the other half which is much closer to the ground.

@gzt mentioned a dislike for polystyrene foam, my plan was to create some sort of lever system to get this into the areas that I cannot reach. But if I don't go with polystyrene, what other options are there? I cannot figure out how to staple batts from a distance; I don't want to do spray foam; and I don't want to pull up the floorboards.

FYI this part of the house is newer than the original, its around 1950 and has different weatherboards, not sure if ithat is considered straighter?

Any ideas?

If there is no other option, what are the negatives with polystyrene, especially compared to no insulation?

Here is a view looking from the highest part of the "low" section, towards to the lowest part.

rake as much rubble out as you can. smooth is what you want.

polystyrene is meant to be clipped in place, you will need to get under and hammer the clips in. the other downside is you need to protect power cables from it. that power cable also needs clipping up.

those joists look like a bit of a horror story.

timbosan

2159 posts

Uber Geek

#3290407 3-Oct-2024 10:53

Hey all, restarting this thread. Since I last posted the house has been re-piled (not all, just the places it needed) and I am back to sorting out other problems, including the ground sheet.

But a more pressing need has come up. I have a quote for Insulmax, and keen to proceed, but the front of the house (the low part in the photos) has hardboard on the interior walls. Due to poor drainage in the past the house has sunk a bit in one corner at the front, now that is fixed, but the hardboard is buckling in areas and parts have been patched in the past by previous owners where it split, but they just put more hardboard over the holes they cutout.

So I want to strip the hardboard and replace with gib before the Insulmax is done. My plan is to remove skirting and architraves but cut around windows (I don't really want to ruin and redo the windows and they have enough depth to them that I can get away with this plan). Also adding a layer of gib over the ceiling covering the existing "softboard" stuff.

However, I am wondering if I need to install a vapour control barrier before I gib, something like this https://5merchants.co.nz/product/majrex-1-5m-x-50m/. There is no building paper between the weatherboards and studs and the room is the coldest (skillion roof and lack of underfloor insulation).

Is this a good idea? I can add Marjex to all the walls and seal the top and bottom edges to the floor / ceiling before adding back skirting etc.

Background - I have a goal to follow EnerPHit principles as possible, without taking the house back to the framing. This is the kind of thing I am looking to do https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXXgjvOJcYI

xyf

300 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3290413 3-Oct-2024 11:18

Hey mate, so we chatted once when you picked something up from me. For my south rooms that dont get much sun in the summer I took off the gib and then used a high quality vaper barrier probably like that one you listed. I would cut each bit to fit in the framing so basically the insulation was nice and dry. Obviously this isnt a 100% perfect since there can be small gaps but really minimal if done right. I used tac nails to hold it all in place and also yes this was rough as the framing is all hardwood.

For the other two bedroom I have done that are full sun winter rooms and hot, i didnt add the vapor barrier. They are small sq meters exterier walls, with 1/3rd of the wall a window so minimal chance of dampness. The walls get hot to touch (on the outside) in summer and winter so easy to dry out if some disaster happened.

I also filled most gaps i could in the weatherboards from the inside. House has been painted recently too so this also fills any gaps. Then I filled around the windows with expanding foam and in any small gaps between framing. I have no issues in the 4 years since I did it all

timbosan

2159 posts

Uber Geek

#3290420 3-Oct-2024 11:31

xyf:

Hey mate, so we chatted once when you picked something up from me. For my south rooms that dont get much sun in the summer I took off the gib and then used a high quality vaper barrier probably like that one you listed. I would cut each bit to fit in the framing so basically the insulation was nice and dry. Obviously this isnt a 100% perfect since there can be small gaps but really minimal if done right. I used tac nails to hold it all in place and also yes this was rough as the framing is all hardwood.

For the other two bedroom I have done that are full sun winter rooms and hot, i didnt add the vapor barrier. They are small sq meters exterier walls, with 1/3rd of the wall a window so minimal chance of dampness. The walls get hot to touch (on the outside) in summer and winter so easy to dry out if some disaster happened.

I also filled most gaps i could in the weatherboards from the inside. House has been painted recently too so this also fills any gaps. Then I filled around the windows with expanding foam and in any small gaps between framing. I have no issues in the 4 years since I did it all

Hey I remember! It was a Unifi A/P :-). My daughter wasn't impressed we spoke about groundsheets for so long!

When you say "cut each bit to fit the framing" do you mean doing a Scott Brown and adding building paper between the studs before insulation from the inside? I thought of that, but I think its easier / cheaper / possibly better R value, to not worry about the lack of building paper between the weather boards but instead focus on the interior walls. So it would be:

Weatherboard -> studs / insulmax -> Sigma vapour barrier -> gib

This way the barrier envelopes all the walls, and is taped at joins and stapled to the studs. Something like this:

xyf

300 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3290422 3-Oct-2024 11:36

O I see what you mean, so it is totally on the inside... I never thought of that although I used pink batts so couldnt get wet from teh outside. That seems like a solid idea

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3290608 3-Oct-2024 17:51

timbosan:

Hey all, restarting this thread. Since I last posted the house has been re-piled (not all, just the places it needed) and I am back to sorting out other problems, including the ground sheet.

But a more pressing need has come up. I have a quote for Insulmax, and keen to proceed, but the front of the house (the low part in the photos) has hardboard on the interior walls. Due to poor drainage in the past the house has sunk a bit in one corner at the front, now that is fixed, but the hardboard is buckling in areas and parts have been patched in the past by previous owners where it split, but they just put more hardboard over the holes they cutout.

So I want to strip the hardboard and replace with gib before the Insulmax is done. My plan is to remove skirting and architraves but cut around windows (I don't really want to ruin and redo the windows and they have enough depth to them that I can get away with this plan). Also adding a layer of gib over the ceiling covering the existing "softboard" stuff.

However, I am wondering if I need to install a vapour control barrier before I gib, something like this https://5merchants.co.nz/product/majrex-1-5m-x-50m/. There is no building paper between the weatherboards and studs and the room is the coldest (skillion roof and lack of underfloor insulation).

Is this a good idea? I can add Marjex to all the walls and seal the top and bottom edges to the floor / ceiling before adding back skirting etc.

Background - I have a goal to follow EnerPHit principles as possible, without taking the house back to the framing. This is the kind of thing I am looking to do https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXXgjvOJcYI

ideally strip back to studs, pocket install house wrap then insulate and gib. pointless gibbing then installing insulmax. i do not recommend drilling holes through the cladding to pump insulation in, especially removing the drainage plane. i think branz has dropped their support for these types of products.

installing a smart vapor barrier is good, it does help reduce in wall condensation (see branz testing). however does the rest of the house follow EnerPHit principles? otherwise its a lot of cost for very little gain. if you want to make it air tight you really need to remove the cladding, fit sheathing/rigid air barrier, so outside air cannot get in around the insulation. don't forget the windows and doors. on house that old typically the flooring is a major source of air leakage.

the smart vapor barrier is not a replacement for the lack of building paper/house wrap under the cladding. two very different jobs.

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