Panasonic vs Mitsubishi ducted heat pump and ventilation solutions

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2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3313930 28-Nov-2024 19:53

timmmay:

@tweake the only filter we have is what seems to be a filtered eggcrate grill. I'd like to have more of a filter inline, it gets a bit dusty here possibly because of the thick carpet, but getting it done would probably cost quite a bit. From memory the duct from the return grill is 400mm, the filters go that high but that places doesn't have filter boxes that size.

worse case, sheet metal places should be able to make on. at lot of hvac supply companies custom make stuff. i'm sure someone like avon electric can make one.

timmmay

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#3313938 28-Nov-2024 20:23

Is it normal to have a filter box with filters, or just the mesh fabric?

Getting a filter box and filter wouldn't be too hard, few hundred dollars maybe. But getting it attached probably best done by the installer in case something goes wrong, few hundred dollars there too. Unsure if it's worth the bother.

tweake

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#3313947 28-Nov-2024 21:09

timmmay:

Is it normal to have a filter box with filters, or just the mesh fabric?

Getting a filter box and filter wouldn't be too hard, few hundred dollars maybe. But getting it attached probably best done by the installer in case something goes wrong, few hundred dollars there too. Unsure if it's worth the bother.

i don't think there is such a thing as normal in nz with residential hvac. its still quite new.

so most of the stuff i see is overseas where its common to have filters. often the hvac unit itself has the filter cabinet/slot built into it. tho of course there is a lot of budget options that just have screens.

if its worth doing? depends on your view point on health etc. one of the worse things to breathe in is fine dust and hvac spreads it around the house. its a good thing to use the hvac system to capture and filter out all that fine dust. the finer the filter the better, but the size required increases. your call on health vers cost.

timmmay

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#3314249 29-Nov-2024 16:43

tweake:

i don't think there is such a thing as normal in nz with residential hvac. its still quite new.

so most of the stuff i see is overseas where its common to have filters. often the hvac unit itself has the filter cabinet/slot built into it. tho of course there is a lot of budget options that just have screens.

if its worth doing? depends on your view point on health etc. one of the worse things to breathe in is fine dust and hvac spreads it around the house. its a good thing to use the hvac system to capture and filter out all that fine dust. the finer the filter the better, but the size required increases. your call on health vers cost.

We already have HEPA filter on the ventilation system, so there shouldn't be toooo much stuff floating around the house. Adding another filter might be nice, but would reduce airflow a bit. I have a service guy coming out this week, I'll ask how much it would cost to put a filter in, and if they supply or if I should buy my own.

tweake

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#3314260 29-Nov-2024 17:37

timmmay:

We already have HEPA filter on the ventilation system, so there shouldn't be toooo much stuff floating around the house. Adding another filter might be nice, but would reduce airflow a bit. I have a service guy coming out this week, I'll ask how much it would cost to put a filter in, and if they supply or if I should buy my own.

people actually generate quite a bit of particles. the old story of most of the dust in the house is human skin. you also get carpet fluff, clothing, dirt that gets walked in and cooking is a huge generator of particles (hence range hoods). clean ventilation air helps a lot. using the hvac as a vacuum cleaner is quite a good idea. but at the end of the day its all down to how clean do you want it.

filter restriction all depends on filter size and housing.

AlDrag

247 posts

Master Geek

#3314271 29-Nov-2024 18:26

So the aircon guy got back to me about the Lossnay bypass damper. He stated that for the Lossnay VL-220, Airtouch 5 can't control the bypass damper, as only the lossnay controller can? He suggested looking at the other Lossnay option, the LGH-25RVX3-E, as it has automatic bypass damper contorl. He also stated it's a little smaller, so might be easier to get into the attic (but actually has higher capacity).
Does this hold true? What's the difference?

Edit: Ahhh I think it's also a suggestion because I wanted to duct fresh air downstairs, as the VL-220 doesn't have much capacity. Not good for wet areas though. Hmmmm so it's a compromise....

tweake

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Uber Geek

#3314280 29-Nov-2024 19:36

AlDrag:

So the aircon guy got back to me about the Lossnay bypass damper. He stated that for the Lossnay VL-220, Airtouch 5 can't control the bypass damper, as only the lossnay controller can? He suggested looking at the other Lossnay option, the LGH-25RVX3-E, as it has automatic bypass damper contorl. He also stated it's a little smaller, so might be easier to get into the attic (but actually has higher capacity).
Does this hold true? What's the difference?

Edit: Ahhh I think it's also a suggestion because I wanted to duct fresh air downstairs, as the VL-220 doesn't have much capacity. Not good for wet areas though. Hmmmm so it's a compromise....

the airtouch doesn't need to control the lossnay, or even lossnay controller. a lot of balanced ventilation systems have no controller. you set it, turn it on and leave it. usually have built in control for the damper (overseas its used for defrosting the core). apart from the damper there is nothing to control, apart from boost mode. but that requires the range hood to be wired up for it.

check the size specs, its just different packaging.

i can't remember the size of your house, IF you can do a downstairs vent you will need a larger unit than if your just doing upstairs.

"not good for wet areas" is again complete BS. it makes no difference to the bathroom returns. with an ERV core normally you would run a dehumidifier to manage the homes moisture level. at the very least monitor the humidity levels. the house may be air leaky enough not to require a dehumidifier. you would be doing that regardless of if you had bathroom returns or not.

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AlDrag

247 posts

Master Geek

#3314283 29-Nov-2024 19:49

tweake:

the airtouch doesn't need to control the lossnay, or even lossnay controller. a lot of balanced ventilation systems have no controller. you set it, turn it on and leave it. usually have built in control for the damper (overseas its used for defrosting the core). apart from the damper there is nothing to control, apart from boost mode. but that requires the range hood to be wired up for it.

check the size specs, its just different packaging.

i can't remember the size of your house, IF you can do a downstairs vent you will need a larger unit than if your just doing upstairs.

"not good for wet areas" is again complete BS. it makes no difference to the bathroom returns. with an ERV core normally you would run a dehumidifier to manage the homes moisture level. at the very least monitor the humidity levels. the house may be air leaky enough not to require a dehumidifier. you would be doing that regardless of if you had bathroom returns or not.

I mean the marketing material states it right there. The VL-220 has a non-permeable core where the other models do. Or are you stating that the non-permeable core makes no noticeable different to the performance in NZ homes due to not being very air tight?

So if the VL-220 lossnay's optional bypass damper is controlled automatically, then it doesn't matter, but I guess the aircon guy is trying to state that it isn't controlled automatically. Hmmmm maybe I will try do some research on its integration with airtouch.

tweake

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Uber Geek

#3314301 29-Nov-2024 20:54

AlDrag:

I mean the marketing material states it right there. The VL-220 has a non-permeable core where the other models do. Or are you stating that the non-permeable core makes no noticeable different to the performance in NZ homes due to not being very air tight?

So if the VL-220 lossnay's optional bypass damper is controlled automatically, then it doesn't matter, but I guess the aircon guy is trying to state that it isn't controlled automatically. Hmmmm maybe I will try do some research on its integration with airtouch.

quick dirty explanation. HRV (the vl-220) core keeps outside heat outside and inside heat inside. its does nothing to moisture. outside comes in and inside goes out. ERV, the other model, keeps outside heat and moisture outside and keeps inside heat and moisture inside. that last part is the tricky bit. erv is basically keeping moisture in the house. however if the house is air leaky that moisture will probably get pushed out anyway. hence the need to monitor it. with air tight homes you have a dehumidifier built into the house.

also check how it integrates with the heat pump system.

AlDrag

247 posts

Master Geek

#3314323 30-Nov-2024 07:13

tweake:

quick dirty explanation. HRV (the vl-220) core keeps outside heat outside and inside heat inside. its does nothing to moisture. outside comes in and inside goes out. ERV, the other model, keeps outside heat and moisture outside and keeps inside heat and moisture inside. that last part is the tricky bit. erv is basically keeping moisture in the house. however if the house is air leaky that moisture will probably get pushed out anyway. hence the need to monitor it. with air tight homes you have a dehumidifier built into the house.

also check how it integrates with the heat pump system.

I think also the ERV might be keeping the outside moisture getting into the house? (if the house was perfectly airtight). Heat Pumps technically dehumidify a little bit as well right? not as much as a dedicated dehumidifier of course.

@timmmay supposedly Mitsubishi and others have zone control options. Mitsubishi seems to be only zone on/off but Daikin seems to have true variable zone control like Airtouch 5.
What's your opinion on the Daikin one?
My concerns with the Airtouch from my reading, is that it seems it can only run at 100% or something? I saw someone mention that if you set 50% for 1 bedroom, then 50% of the rest of the capacity has to go somewhere else, like your spill zone. This seems dumb because the heat pump unit is variable and should be able to run at a lower power rating if cooling just a single room (if it can go low enough of course). The fact airtouch is also a shitty android tablet is another turn off.
Any insight here?

timmmay

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#3314326 30-Nov-2024 07:46

AlDrag:

I think also the ERV might be keeping the outside moisture getting into the house? (if the house was perfectly airtight). Heat Pumps technically dehumidify a little bit as well right? not as much as a dedicated dehumidifier of course.

@timmmay supposedly Mitsubishi and others have zone control options. Mitsubishi seems to be only zone on/off but Daikin seems to have true variable zone control like Airtouch 5.
What's your opinion on the Daikin one?
My concerns with the Airtouch from my reading, is that it seems it can only run at 100% or something? I saw someone mention that if you set 50% for 1 bedroom, then 50% of the rest of the capacity has to go somewhere else, like your spill zone. This seems dumb because the heat pump unit is variable and should be able to run at a lower power rating if cooling just a single room (if it can go low enough of course). The fact airtouch is also a shitty android tablet is another turn off.
Any insight here?

I can't comment on Mitsubishi or Daikin native zone control, I have no knowledge of them.

Airtouch varies each room from 0% to 100% in 5% increments. All zones can be fully open or fully closed, but if the total opening percentage is less than 100% then the spill opens to make it up to 100% to protect the ducting from overpressure. The spill is either designated as a room (we use the lounge) or a bypass damper. Bypass damper basically loops the heat pump output to the input, I've read that it works very well. I STRONGLY recommend a bypass damper, because otherwise the spill zone regularly overheats / overcools. The reason for that is the Airtouch4 slowly reduces dampers from 100% to 0% as the room approaches target temperature, if you have two rooms open 5% as it's almost at temperature the other 90% goes to spill.

I've written a bunch of Home Assistant automations to reduce the impact of spill to almost nothing, basically by keeping the dampers closer to wide open until it's almost up to temperature. I understood the issue before I purchased I 100% would have gotten the bypass damper.

tweake

2391 posts

Uber Geek

#3314353 30-Nov-2024 10:46

AlDrag:

I think also the ERV might be keeping the outside moisture getting into the house? (if the house was perfectly airtight). Heat Pumps technically dehumidify a little bit as well right? not as much as a dedicated dehumidifier of course.

yes ERV keeps outside moisture outside. great for auckland/north. it also makes it easier to dehumidify as you don't have to dehumidify the ventilation air. but there is air leakage and how much people open doors, run the range hood or laundry fan, external vented clothes drier etc.

aircon dehumidifies a bit, airflow dependent. often heat pumps are designed with high efficiency in mind so they run the coil not as cold so have less dehumidification.

overseas you can go through the books and select just the right aircon unit to provide the right amount of dehumidification and cooling capacity that your climate requires. it makes your brain hurt. i think its better to have two machines each doing it own job. especially as we can have weather thats humid but not hot enough to run the aircon, or hot weather thats dry and dehumidifying is not required.

AlDrag

247 posts

Master Geek

#3315012 2-Dec-2024 06:23

Ok I'll do some more thinking about HRV vs ERV for this build. Ugh.

We just moved in this weekend. Not too hot upstairs yet, but obviously have to keep the windows open, and being a townhouse, I can imagine your neighbours can easily hear you (if their windows are open also). So can't wait to get aircon....

So apparently Daikin has full variable zone control https://www.daikin.co.nz/pages/airzone-vaf-zoning-system-1
This is really tempting, because airtouch does seem a bit jank in my opinion. Being an Android tablet supposedly (and quite expensive).

I'll check what the rated noise levels and COP is of the Daikin.

timmmay

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#3315014 2-Dec-2024 07:01

Suggest you find and talk to someone who has that Daikin temperature control installed. When I was getting mine put in someone told me the Daikin version at the time wasn't very good, I can't remember why, but I would hope that it would be much better by now.

I would always tend to use the OEM version rather than a third party. Suggest you also check to see if it has an API you can use, I find home assistant integration super useful with the air touch.

Kickinbac

427 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3315076 2-Dec-2024 11:42

AlDrag:

Ok I'll do some more thinking about HRV vs ERV for this build. Ugh.

We just moved in this weekend. Not too hot upstairs yet, but obviously have to keep the windows open, and being a townhouse, I can imagine your neighbours can easily hear you (if their windows are open also). So can't wait to get aircon....

So apparently Daikin has full variable zone control https://www.daikin.co.nz/pages/airzone-vaf-zoning-system-1
This is really tempting, because airtouch does seem a bit jank in my opinion. Being an Android tablet supposedly (and quite expensive).

I'll check what the rated noise levels and COP is of the Daikin.

The Daikin Airzone system controls the fan speed of the ducted indoor unit, so the controller automatically selects the appropriate fan speed depending on the number of zones that are open and how much they are open.

In my opinion this is a very important feature for a variable air flow system as you don't have to have a spill zone or bypass damper.

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