Any sparkies that know about Ripple Control boxes?

Forums › Home Workshop DIY › Any sparkies that know about Ripple Control boxes?

howduz1

83 posts

Master Geek

#115531 28-Mar-2013 18:38

The reason I ask is that ours has a fault (it keeps tripping off) and the local sparky "bypassed" it by removing the neautral wire, and called it in for replacement.

My question is that since it is out of circuit and "on" all the time (and providing power to the hot water heater 24 hrs a day) is our power bill going to skyrocket?

It's been "bypassed" for a bout 4 weeks now.

Just wondering whether to go direct to power company and get a hurry up on a new box or is it not worth worrying about?

(There is no fault with hot water cylinder or anything else inside house, fault has been confirmed with ripple rcvr.)

Thanks

Ham

462 posts

Ultimate Geek

#788870 28-Mar-2013 18:42

Your water heater will still have a thermostat so won't be on all the time.. your bill will be fine.

howduz1

83 posts

Master Geek

#788874 28-Mar-2013 18:53

Thanks Ham, yep I know it has a thermostat and will only heat as required but it will try to do this all day and not between the hours of 11 and 7 (or whatever it is) and surely that would cost more? If it's only a few bucks I obviously don't care but any more and I'll be a bit peeved (that it takes 4 weeks + to change a ripple box).

Just reckon it will push the bill up a bit otherwise why would we have these off peak options?

cheers

DarthKermit

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#788881 28-Mar-2013 19:05

Your power company uses the ripple control to switch off HW cylinders during peak power usage times. I don't think there is any other reason it's ever used.

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coffeebaron

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#788893 28-Mar-2013 19:25

Your bill may go down as it should be more efficient to maintain temperature, rather than a mass recover after the ripple control has kicked it off for a while :)

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richms

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#788940 28-Mar-2013 20:13

No way it will go down at all. Maintaining a temperature will always use more energy than heating it back up from a lower one for the same amount of water take off.

Its not like a heatpump that has a vastly different return on energy input depending on how many kW it is being asked to provide. Resistive elements are always a 1:1

The only thing to watch out for is if you are on a time of day usage, it may move more of the usage to the higher rate times. Otherwise there shouldnt be a great deal of change. The load shedding aspect of the ripple controls is only supposed to be active for a few hours a day in anycase, its not a day/night rate selector.

Richard rich.ms

Skolink

1081 posts

Uber Geek

#789108 29-Mar-2013 09:23

Do you have a seperate meter for your hotwater? If so your bill will remain the same. Do make sure that the ripple relay gets replaced though, otherwise you may get in trouble.

If you do not have a seperate meter, and you are on day/night rate (dual register meter) then your bill will go up because the cyclinder will heat during the day instead of just a night when power is about 1/2 price.

Ripple control does switch your cylinder off and on each night, it is not just for load shedding. At least on the Orion (Christchurch) network anyway. There are no timers on the switchboard (as I have seen in Hobart for example) where they do not use ripple control but have day/night rates.

However you must not be in Christchurch otherwise the ripple relay would be incorporated into the Arc Innovations advanced meter.

Skolink

1081 posts

Uber Geek

#789110 29-Mar-2013 09:30

richms: No way it will go down at all. Maintaining a temperature will always use more energy than heating it back up from a lower one for the same amount of water take off.

Yes, this fallacy is also applied to heat pumps as well. People leave them running all day and night even when not home (albeit on a slightly lower temperature), because they believe it will save power (not because they want to maintain a constant temperature).

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howduz1

83 posts

Master Geek

#789148 29-Mar-2013 10:54

Thanks to everyone for the replies, it's pretty much confirmed what I thought about the setup however,

Skolink - I have a separate meter for hot water, can you please explain how the bill will stay the same? Wouldn't the second scenario (one meter) also apply. I mean it still heats all day and uses power all day, the meter just tells the reader "how much".... doesn't it?

Just want to clarify things before I have a chat to my local sparky (again).

p.s. I'm bottom South West of South Island (on Contact energy).

timmmay

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#789172 29-Mar-2013 11:11

Skolink:
richms: No way it will go down at all. Maintaining a temperature will always use more energy than heating it back up from a lower one for the same amount of water take off.

Yes, this fallacy is also applied to heat pumps as well. People leave them running all day and night even when not home (albeit on a slightly lower temperature), because they believe it will save power (not because they want to maintain a constant temperature).

I've always wanted to test it. In a well insulated house it should be ok to leave it running.

You're not just heating the air, you have to heat the carpet, the framing, the lining, the sofa, etc. Once it's up to heat maybe it retains its heat better, and the whole house feels warmer.

Though it probably will cost significantly more to run, I wonder how much more.

coffeebaron

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#789176 29-Mar-2013 11:23

timmmay:
Skolink:
richms: No way it will go down at all. Maintaining a temperature will always use more energy than heating it back up from a lower one for the same amount of water take off.

Yes, this fallacy is also applied to heat pumps as well. People leave them running all day and night even when not home (albeit on a slightly lower temperature), because they believe it will save power (not because they want to maintain a constant temperature).

I've always wanted to test it. In a well insulated house it should be ok to leave it running.

You're not just heating the air, you have to heat the carpet, the framing, the lining, the sofa, etc. Once it's up to heat maybe it retains its heat better, and the whole house feels warmer.

Though it probably will cost significantly more to run, I wonder how much more.

I guess there is differing opinions on this and various factors apply. I know that I go through more firewood if I don't light the fire at least once per day during the cold winter. Don't light it for a few days, house takes several times the amount of wood to bring things up to temperature again. Obviously there is a cross over point, i.e. if I was away a week, I would use more wood if I got someone to light each day, than if I just did the big light up when I got back.

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richms

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#789205 29-Mar-2013 12:13

Inverter heatpumps are more efficiant at lower outputs. so are fireplaces.

Richard rich.ms

Skolink

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#789819 31-Mar-2013 07:46

richms: Inverter heatpumps are more efficiant at lower outputs.

Agree. So there will be some point where it is more energy efficient to run constantly than to switch off/on.

richms: so are fireplaces.

Disagree. ECan approved burners do not have a 'low' setting, because they burn too inefficiently. The hotter a fire, the more efficiently it burns. Most burners only achieve maximum efficiency (about 60% gross) at maximum rated output. At lower outputs it drops to 50% gross.

Skolink

1081 posts

Uber Geek

#789820 31-Mar-2013 07:54

howduz1: Skolink - I have a separate meter for hot water, can you please explain how the bill will stay the same? Wouldn't the second scenario (one meter) also apply. I mean it still heats all day and uses power all day, the meter just tells the reader "how much".... doesn't it?

The bill will stay the same, because as you say the second meter doesn't know what time of day the power is used. Your retailer assumes it is at night (or off-peak if you have afternoon boost).

Your primary meter must be dual-register (ie aware of the time of day / tariff) since you are on a day/night plan.

Does your bill have three readings; day/night day, day/night night, and offpeak?

Skolink

1081 posts

Uber Geek

#789913 31-Mar-2013 14:01

Skolink:
richms: Inverter heatpumps are more efficiant at lower outputs.

Agree. So there will be some point where it is more energy efficient to run constantly than to switch off/on.

richms: so are fireplaces.

Disagree. ECan approved burners do not have a 'low' setting, because they burn too inefficiently. The hotter a fire, the more efficiently it burns. Most burners only achieve maximum efficiency (about 60% gross) at maximum rated output. At lower outputs it drops to 50% gross.

Strangely, our woodburner on which the Clean Air certification has now expired, lists on the side of it:
Efficiency (average)
High 63%
Medium 66%
Low 78%
Output range tested 7.6-16.1 kW
Maximum (estimated) 22 kW

I assume the efficiencies quoted must be net.

Technofreak

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#790067 31-Mar-2013 22:19

If anything you'll be on the winning side. As pointed out above, the ripple control is used switch off that circuit during peak load times to reduce the power companies exposure to peak load costs from their power supplier.

Because this circuit is under the control of the power company they give you a cheaper rate on the ripple circuit. At the moment you have the cheaper power 24 hours per day instead of just when the power company wants you to have access to the cheaper power.

You won't actually see any direct savings but you'll be effectively getting "full access" power at the ripple rate, if that makes sense.

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