Cycle Helmets, Yes or No?

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13684 posts

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#1978730 16-Mar-2018 15:24

kryptonjohn:

Fred99:

Closest I can get to a rational explanation is anecdotal.
My wife drives a convertible car. If I drive that with the hood down, I believe I notice a significant change in behaviour from other road users than if I drive the same car with the hood up, they are much more courteous - often behaving completely unexpectedly. Stuck in a wrong lane etc, they'll make gaps, won't tailgate, It's not because I look intimidating (not since I got the face and neck tattoos lasered /s) I believe it's because they identify the car as being something with a fellow human being in it, rather than an obstacle in their way, and/or are more aware of "personal space" instinct.

Could be wrong - but perhaps the observation above about clearance distances is from "personal space" consideration, rather than or as well as risk compensation.

Helmets are somewhat depersonalising - even if not for covering up hair (or a bald pate), then for automatic assumption that it's a "%^$ing cyclist in the way" - rather than another human being.

Interesting. I think a lot of people do defer to a nice car on the road. At least those that appreciate nice cars or don't want to have to pay the bill for putting a dent in one. If I see your convertible I actually might think, "that's a tax payer, I'll be nice".

I can't say I've noticed any emotional response on seeing a helmet less cyclist other than "jeez look at that clown, he doesn't want to live long".

It's a 1998 MX5, worth perhaps $5k - about the price of a single Range Rover headlight I guess. To put it another way, I usually drove a big ugly black truck which I've traded in for a nice new expensive shiney one, and I'm absolutely positive that drivers give me a hell of a lot less slack in the shiney new truck which would cost them dearly if they hit it, than the old one which looked like it was built like a tank and they'd have been lucky to damage.

So if you really thought a cyclist without a helmet was a clown who "doesn't want to live long" because he put himself in danger - I do think you'd compensate in your behaviour (even if unconsciously) giving him a bit of slack perhaps - unless we've all become so callous, selfish, and judgemental. I think that most likely you're a good person - so would in fact have a socially appropriate emotional and behavioural response.

kryptonjohn

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#1978733 16-Mar-2018 15:26

Well Fred, there's an angel on one shoulder whispering in my ear: 'be careful of that soul - he's vulnerable'.

You probably don't want to hear what the red guy on the other shoulder's saying!

richrdh18

210 posts

Master Geek

#1978737 16-Mar-2018 15:34

Compulsory for all kids while they are still at school, up to high school.

After that, personal call as to whether you wear one or not.

If I'm just riding down to the dairy to get some milk, NO.

If I go out MTB or Road riding then yes.

Fred99

13684 posts

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#1978744 16-Mar-2018 15:52

kryptonjohn:

Well Fred, there's an angel on one shoulder whispering in my ear: 'be careful of that soul - he's vulnerable'.

You probably don't want to hear what the red guy on the other shoulder's saying!

I have a pretty good idea. Problem is he'd make me use nasty language and these veins would start to visibly throb on my temples and forehead, I decided that the former wasn't going to be great for language development of the kid in the back seat, my wife was convinced that she'd be spending her days as a widowed mother when something finally burst, so I gave up listening to him years ago.

Hammerer

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#1978810 16-Mar-2018 17:34

kryptonjohn:

I understand but to me mandatory helmets on the roads are far more important than minor irritation as a) I don't want to see you living out your life in a damaged or vegetative state due to head injury (or dead or just taking up space in a ward) and b) I don't want kids to grow up thinking it's acceptable to ride on the roads without a lid.

The argument that it puts people off cycling doesn't washwith me. If the helmet is that terrible then fine, don't cycle.

We don't have "mandatory helmets on the roads". We have mandatory helmets on cycles. But the same arguments would apply to those inside motor vehicles.

ACC statistics for the last five years for show about $30 million a year in for claims related to non-fatal head injuries. It is hard to see what proportion relates to cycling accidents versus accidents only involving motor vehicles without cycles. About half of that total is driving related do perhaps that covers those where a motor vehicle with driver is involved in the accident.

Claim type: Entitlement claims

Account type: Motor Vehicle

Age when injured: All

Gender: All

Body part that was injured: Head (except Face)

Diagnosis of the injury: Concussion / Brain Injury

Show sport-related injuries only: No

Scene of the injury: All

Region of New Zealand: All

Cause of the injury: All

Financial year

New claims

Active claims

Total cost

Jul 2012 - Jun 2013

190

697

$26,276,480

Jul 2013 - Jun 2014

228

729

$28,106,218

Jul 2014 - Jun 2015

270

792

$26,656,487

Jul 2015 - Jun 2016

327

849

$30,246,840

Jul 2016 - Jun 2017

362

938

$31,250,643

Cause of the injury: Driving Related, Struck by Person/Animal, Skid, Puncture

Financial year

New claims

Active claims

Total cost

Jul 2012 - Jun 2013

368

$13,704,599

Jul 2013 - Jun 2014

112

387

$14,726,856

Jul 2014 - Jun 2015

135

415

$14,776,191

Jul 2015 - Jun 2016

160

441

$16,114,652

Jul 2016 - Jun 2017

173

482

$17,341,031

Aredwood

3885 posts

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#1978926 17-Mar-2018 03:03

Another factor for the decline in commuter cycling since 1994 - Higher property prices and rents. This means it is less likely that you will live close enough to your workplace to easily bike to work.

If your commute takes say 1 hour each way by car. And / or involves motorways / roads with a 100Km/Hr speed limit. Biking to work is unlikely to be practical for you.

Also Hybrid and Electric cars now exist, which didn't in 1994. So assuming that you get cheap or free parking at your workplace. Fuel costs of driving to work are no longer such a big factor as previously.

Edited to add

Overseas based commentators discussing the NZ helmet laws might not be aware of the high house prices in NZ.

Batman

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#1978932 17-Mar-2018 07:26

Aredwood: Another factor for the decline in commuter cycling since 1994 - Higher property prices and rents. This means it is less likely that you will live close enough to your workplace to easily bike to work.

If your commute takes say 1 hour each way by car. And / or involves motorways / roads with a 100Km/Hr speed limit. Biking to work is unlikely to be practical for you.

Also Hybrid and Electric cars now exist, which didn't in 1994. So assuming that you get cheap or free parking at your workplace. Fuel costs of driving to work are no longer such a big factor as previously.

Edited to add

Overseas based commentators discussing the NZ helmet laws might not be aware of the high house prices in NZ.

in general, house prices in AKL is no higher than other cities in the world. in fact they are generally cheaper than other cities.

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Fred99

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#1978981 17-Mar-2018 11:40

Batman:

Aredwood: Another factor for the decline in commuter cycling since 1994 - Higher property prices and rents. This means it is less likely that you will live close enough to your workplace to easily bike to work.

If your commute takes say 1 hour each way by car. And / or involves motorways / roads with a 100Km/Hr speed limit. Biking to work is unlikely to be practical for you.

Also Hybrid and Electric cars now exist, which didn't in 1994. So assuming that you get cheap or free parking at your workplace. Fuel costs of driving to work are no longer such a big factor as previously.

Edited to add

Overseas based commentators discussing the NZ helmet laws might not be aware of the high house prices in NZ.

in general, house prices in AKL is no higher than other cities in the world. in fact they are generally cheaper than other cities.

Relative to median household income they very much are - and that's the thing which matters most in terms of affordability.

Improving, but 9th most unaffordable out of 92 (it had actually improved a bit since 2016) according to a Demographia survey.

Fred99

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#1978982 17-Mar-2018 11:44

A very entertaining short documentary on cycling policy in London, a little off-topic except noticeable that unlike NZ, people seem quite comfortable with the idea of not wearing helmets (even in some examples where it looks pretty dangerous - even I'd want to wear a helmet)

Edit : can't get the embedded youtube video to play.

Link is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gohSeOYheXg&t=521s

networkn

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#1979051 17-Mar-2018 15:54

Fred99:

A very entertaining short documentary on cycling policy in London, a little off-topic except noticeable that unlike NZ, people seem quite comfortable with the idea of not wearing helmets (even in some examples where it looks pretty dangerous - even I'd want to wear a helmet)

Edit : can't get the embedded youtube video to play.

Link is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gohSeOYheXg&t=521s

Heh, well just because people feel comfortable doesn't mean it's smart. Doesn't mean they wouldn't be better protected.

I am surprised that any person with an IQ over 90 would even consider riding without a Helmet. Some of the justifications are just literally insane.

frankv

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#1979055 17-Mar-2018 16:11

networkn:

I am surprised that any person with an IQ over 90 would even consider riding without a Helmet. Some of the justifications are just literally insane.

I am surprised that any person with an IQ over 80 would even consider making cycle helmet-wearing compulsory. Some of the justifications are just literally insane.

networkn

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#1979069 17-Mar-2018 17:15

frankv:

networkn:

I am surprised that any person with an IQ over 90 would even consider riding without a Helmet. Some of the justifications are just literally insane.

I am surprised that any person with an IQ over 80 would even consider making cycle helmet-wearing compulsory. Some of the justifications are just literally insane.

Pfft whatever!

No free medical/injury cover for anyone without a helmet!

mattwnz

20141 posts

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#1979072 17-Mar-2018 17:30

Fred99:

Relative to median household income they very much are - and that's the thing which matters most in terms of affordability.

Improving, but 9th most unaffordable out of 92 (it had actually improved a bit since 2016) according to a Demographia survey.

House prices vs affordability are very different things, At the moment affordability isn't as bad as it has been, becuase of historically low interest rates, which are partly a result of the 2007 GFC.It is becuase of the low rates, that have allowed people to borrow more, outbidding each other at auctions, and significantly increasing the house prices. This is especially bad in places like Auckand which people have moved to due to work. If interest rates rose back to teh levels prior to the GFC, it would make houses significantly more unaffordable, and possibly price drops would result, as people wouldn't be able to afford to buy at the current highly inflated prices. But with all these houses being bulldozed and replaced with high intensive housing developments, allwoing people to lie closer to work, it is possible that we may see a growth in cycling again. Although that won't have anything to do with helmet laws. The other thing is a lot more people are now working from home, so don't need to cycle at all.

Fred99

13684 posts

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#1979197 17-Mar-2018 21:12

networkn:

I am surprised that any person with an IQ over 90 would even consider riding without a Helmet. Some of the justifications are just literally insane.

big smile )))))))))))

Fred99

13684 posts

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#1979198 17-Mar-2018 21:14

networkn:

frankv:

networkn:

I am surprised that any person with an IQ over 90 would even consider riding without a Helmet. Some of the justifications are just literally insane.

I am surprised that any person with an IQ over 80 would even consider making cycle helmet-wearing compulsory. Some of the justifications are just literally insane.

Pfft whatever!

No free medical/injury cover for anyone without a helmet!

Good idea - let's punish the circumcised.

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