Guy buys hydrogen car but can't buy hydrogen

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Guy buys hydrogen car but can't buy hydrogen

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57 posts

Master Geek

#2836872 22-Dec-2021 13:59

MikeAqua:

RobDickinson:

Yet still no one buys them.. Why?

because they are worth next to nothing after 3 years

because half the filling stations are faulty

and the other half rarely have fuel.

Because the technology has been prematurely deployed. Wait a decade.

We do not have a decade to wait.

Waiting a decade, and another, and another, as we have been doing to date, is a sure way to burn the entire planet. It is what got us into this mess.

Obraik

2123 posts

Uber Geek

#2836873 22-Dec-2021 14:03

Dingbatt:
Charging time vs refilling time?

But yes, batteries have and will continue to improve.

If you just look at the raw numbers then sure, but in reality, BEVs can now drive 6 hours or more without having to stop. The driver will be needing to stop more than the actual car so can charge when the occupants stop for food, a rest etc without the stop being because the car needs to be charged. Even after that 6 hours of driving, you're looking at a 15 to 20 min charge to go another 4-5 hours.

Hydrogen fill times aren't always as quick as they're made out to be. If someone else just finished filling then you will have to wait 10-15 mins while the system represurizes and at the end of your fill you may have to wait 5mins while the connector defrosts to release the nozzle.

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rjh

57 posts

Master Geek

#2836874 22-Dec-2021 14:04

Dingbatt:

Obraik: Compare it to BEV technology which continues to improve year on year, to the point now where basically all of the negatives when compared to hydrogen don't exist anymore.

Charging time vs refilling time?

But yes, batteries have and will continue to improve.

You get to the stage of diminishing returns. or example, our new ferry can recharge in 15min at 1.2MW.

Is filling with hydrogen going to be significantly faster, in the overall scheme of things (like time taken to dock, run the connection, transfer the fuel etc).

Even refilling a LPG bottle takes 5 mins...

It has already got to the stage where it doesn't matter.

RobDickinson

1524 posts

Uber Geek

#2836880 22-Dec-2021 14:17

rjh:

We do not have a decade to wait.

Waiting a decade, and another, and another, as we have been doing to date, is a sure way to burn the entire planet. It is what got us into this mess.

This was the whole point of FCEV. To delay any change from the status quo, it was never intended as an actual scalable solution

frankv

5680 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2836895 22-Dec-2021 14:37

Obraik:

A single Hydrogen truck or bus really isn't that meaningful, especially when there's little investment on the refilling network and major players are pulling out.

After all, there's a single hydrogen car in the South Island.... 🤣🤣😀

MikeAqua

7773 posts

Uber Geek

#2836915 22-Dec-2021 15:02

rjh:

You get to the stage of diminishing returns. or example, our new ferry can recharge in 15min at 1.2MW.

Is filling with hydrogen going to be significantly faster, in the overall scheme of things (like time taken to dock, run the connection, transfer the fuel etc).

Even refilling a LPG bottle takes 5 mins...

It has already got to the stage where it doesn't matter.

For that particular use case, there is no refueling time advantage to hydrogen. The electric ferry is a short run, lightweight passenger catamaran which is the perfect use case for a battery powered commercial vessel. It carries almost no load, has limited drag, stops frequently and spends a reasonable amount of time in low speed areas in a 5 knot zone. I doubt you could run an interisland ferry on battery only. Even Fullers in Auckland are going for hybrid ferries, not battery only.

For a real vessel that does multi-day trips and covers 100s of miles, there is no BEV solution. The immediate solution is biodiesel and hydrogen after that. For long haul trucking you would either stop regularly to swap your tractor unit for one with a full charge (like a stage coach) or use biodiesel, and hydrogen after that.

Mike

MikeAqua

7773 posts

Uber Geek

#2836929 22-Dec-2021 15:26

rjh:

We do not have a decade to wait.

Waiting a decade, and another, and another, as we have been doing to date, is a sure way to burn the entire planet. It is what got us into this mess.

Good luck burning the entire planet. Two thirds of it is covered by water.

And it's not an either or situation. Those who want to pay more for car that costs more and does less, can buy a BEV now. That seems to be happening as I find myself stuck behind/overtaking more and more EVs on the road. Those who want a car that does more and costs less can persist with current technology.

ICE is the only technology that has really delayed development of BEV.

Mike

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Obraik

2123 posts

Uber Geek

#2836931 22-Dec-2021 15:30

MikeAqua:

For a real vessel that does multi-day trips and covers 100s of miles, there is no BEV solution. The immediate solution is biodiesel and hydrogen after that. For long haul trucking you would either stop regularly to swap your tractor unit for one with a full charge (like a stage coach) or use biodiesel, and hydrogen after that.

Are we talking about long haul trucking in New Zealand? If that's the case then no, tractor unit swapping isn't going to be necessary. With something like the Tesla Semi that has 800km of range while fully loaded, that well exceeds the 5.5 hour limit for commercial truck drivers before they have to take a 30min break. With strategic placement of chargers at common truck stops, it can recharge back to 80% in less than half an hour.

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frankv

5680 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2836943 22-Dec-2021 15:59

MikeAqua:

I doubt you could run an interisland ferry on battery only. Even Fullers in Auckland are going for hybrid ferries, not battery only.

For a real vessel that does multi-day trips and covers 100s of miles, there is no BEV solution. The immediate solution is biodiesel and hydrogen after that. For long haul trucking you would either stop regularly to swap your tractor unit for one with a full charge (like a stage coach) or use biodiesel, and hydrogen after that.

The immediate solution is diesel, then biodiesel, then perhaps hydrogen, but there are other options... a while back, I did some calculations and I think you would need about 3 ship's area of solar panels to get enough power to run one ship. I don't recall whether that was for 24x7 power, or just during daylight. So you could tow a large barge or two of solar panels behind your ship. Conversely, if solar panel efficiency triples, you'll be about right with just the ship. Plus whatever wind or perhaps wave energy you can harvest.

Not suitable for an interisland ferry, but I could see transoceanic shipping doing this.

rjh

57 posts

Master Geek

#2836949 22-Dec-2021 16:07

RobDickinson:

rjh:

We do not have a decade to wait.

Waiting a decade, and another, and another, as we have been doing to date, is a sure way to burn the entire planet. It is what got us into this mess.

This was the whole point of FCEV. To delay any change from the status quo, it was never intended as an actual scalable solution

Exactly, hydrogen is a distraction by those that want to maintain their position as gatekeepers. It is extremely frustrating that people still think hydrogen is viable, it has had decades of development and got nowhere - supporters are just playing into the fuel companies hands (or worse, are complicit). Even continuing to talk about biodiesel is complete madness - the fuel companies have exactly the same agenda here, too.

FCEVs are more complex, more expensive, suffer from centralised control of refueling, and are less efficient. How does the end user benefit from any of that? They don't...

Never let perfection get in the way of good enough - BEVs are good enough; let's go...

rjh

57 posts

Master Geek

#2836951 22-Dec-2021 16:11

MikeAqua:

rjh:

You get to the stage of diminishing returns. or example, our new ferry can recharge in 15min at 1.2MW.

Is filling with hydrogen going to be significantly faster, in the overall scheme of things (like time taken to dock, run the connection, transfer the fuel etc).

Even refilling a LPG bottle takes 5 mins...

It has already got to the stage where it doesn't matter.

For that particular use case, there is no refueling time advantage to hydrogen. The electric ferry is a short run, lightweight passenger catamaran which is the perfect use case for a battery powered commercial vessel. It carries almost no load, has limited drag, stops frequently and spends a reasonable amount of time in low speed areas in a 5 knot zone. I doubt you could run an interisland ferry on battery only. Even Fullers in Auckland are going for hybrid ferries, not battery only.

For a real vessel that does multi-day trips and covers 100s of miles, there is no BEV solution. The immediate solution is biodiesel and hydrogen after that. For long haul trucking you would either stop regularly to swap your tractor unit for one with a full charge (like a stage coach) or use biodiesel, and hydrogen after that.

That's a pretty fast climb down from the specific statement "For long range or high speed there is no battery or hybrid solution and hydrogen is being pursued" with no other qualifications.

MikeAqua

7773 posts

Uber Geek

#2836955 22-Dec-2021 16:16

rjh:

Even continuing to talk about biodiesel is complete madness - the fuel companies have exactly the same agenda here, too.

If I look at the company I work for, our immediate options for decarbonising our fleet of vessels are: -

1) More efficient diesel engines - incremental improvement, at risk of reduced reliability (almost all our engine problem are electronic).

2) Biodiesel made from water products - tallow etc

3) Make the business smaller or shut up shop altogether

For that reason we are looking at biodiesel.

Mike

rjh

57 posts

Master Geek

#2836957 22-Dec-2021 16:17

MikeAqua:

rjh:

We do not have a decade to wait.

Waiting a decade, and another, and another, as we have been doing to date, is a sure way to burn the entire planet. It is what got us into this mess.

Good luck burning the entire planet. Two thirds of it is covered by water.

And it's not an either or situation. Those who want to pay more for car that costs more and does less, can buy a BEV now. That seems to be happening as I find myself stuck behind/overtaking more and more EVs on the road. Those who want a car that does more and costs less can persist with current technology.

...

That seems a bit misinformed. There are very few vehicles that are cheaper than a Tesla Model 3, that can also outperform it. Even most more expensive vehicles are left far behind by Model 3. And the base model isn't even expensive.

rjh

57 posts

Master Geek

#2836961 22-Dec-2021 16:23

MikeAqua:

rjh:

Even continuing to talk about biodiesel is complete madness - the fuel companies have exactly the same agenda here, too.

If I look at the company I work for, our immediate options for decarbonising our fleet of vessels are: -

1) More efficient diesel engines - incremental improvement, at risk of reduced reliability (almost all our engine problem are electronic).

2) Biodiesel made from water products - tallow etc

3) Make the business smaller or shut up shop altogether

For that reason we are looking at biodiesel.

Our local bus company used biodiesel (tallow) 40 years ago.

What changed? Sure, this time it will work, promise...

(Not to mention that basing anything on the use of tallow going forward isn't exactly a smart idea if you look at other changes we'll need to be making to save the planet).

rjh

57 posts

Master Geek

#2836964 22-Dec-2021 16:25

frankv:

MikeAqua:

I doubt you could run an interisland ferry on battery only. Even Fullers in Auckland are going for hybrid ferries, not battery only.

For a real vessel that does multi-day trips and covers 100s of miles, there is no BEV solution. The immediate solution is biodiesel and hydrogen after that. For long haul trucking you would either stop regularly to swap your tractor unit for one with a full charge (like a stage coach) or use biodiesel, and hydrogen after that.

The immediate solution is diesel, then biodiesel, then perhaps hydrogen, but there are other options... a while back, I did some calculations and I think you would need about 3 ship's area of solar panels to get enough power to run one ship. I don't recall whether that was for 24x7 power, or just during daylight. So you could tow a large barge or two of solar panels behind your ship. Conversely, if solar panel efficiency triples, you'll be about right with just the ship. Plus whatever wind or perhaps wave energy you can harvest.

Not suitable for an interisland ferry, but I could see transoceanic shipping doing this.

Totally.

Backed up with pedal power.

Weren't we supposed to have kite powered container ships by now? They were all the rage in the media a few years ago.

All a distraction from actually fixing the problem.

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