Hybrid cars, and which ones are available these days

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Hybrid cars, and which ones are available these days

1 | ... | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21

6706 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Subscriber

#2946208 25-Jul-2022 14:15

If your use case suits a PHEV then you can achieve very low operating costs out of it. However in my view 'combined' fuel consumption figures are not helpful in allowing people to make an informed decision as to whether a PHEV is right for their needs.

MikeB4

18435 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#2946211 25-Jul-2022 14:22

I have found many 'Youtube' reviewers have very little understanding of EV/ Hybrid/PHEV differences and how to use them correctly etc. Most seem to review (better term guided tour) them in comparison with ICE vehicles. Youtube is about entertainment, subscriptions and views for short click bait.

sidefx

3712 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#2946220 25-Jul-2022 14:36

jonathan18:

I’ve posted this previously on the EV thread, but it’s also pertinent to this one:

Very applicable in the UK where a lot of people don't have offstreet parking so are unlikely to be charging overnight. Not so much in NZ. PHEV actually make a lot of sense if you use them right which is pretty much what he is saying... agreed though that the way they report the "fuel efficiency" on them is sorta nonsense.

"I was born not knowing and have had only a little time to change that here and there." | Octopus Energy | Sharesies
- Richard Feynman

Dingbatt

6756 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2946227 25-Jul-2022 14:50

I have found many YouTubers don’t even know the difference between a CVT and an eCVT, let alone how hybrid systems maximise efficiency.

The PHEV will perform like a HEV once it battery has depleted regardless of the system it employs. You will get the benefits of an advanced Atkinson cycle engine with electric motor assist and regenerative braking. But there is no way an Eclipse Cross PHEV will achieve the quoted figure of 2.1l/100km once it’s battery is depleted. It will probably achieve figures very similar to the RAV4 hybrid (about 5 to 6 litres/100km) but it weighs 1.9T, so I would suggest anything under 5 is outstanding. Still better than it’s petrol only rivals.

It also has a 45l tank so I would suggest if you set out with a full battery and a full tank your effective range would be about 800km (50+750). Whereas the WLT3P figures would indicate a range of 2000km+.

As usual knowing how to drive a vehicle to maximise its efficiency is important. If most of your daily running is <50km and you can charge it each night, but want the flexibility to just get in and go on longer journeys a PHEV seems ideal.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

Dingbatt

6756 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2946229 25-Jul-2022 15:06

alasta:

If your use case suits a PHEV then you can achieve very low operating costs out of it. However in my view 'combined' fuel consumption figures are not helpful in allowing people to make an informed decision as to whether a PHEV is right for their needs.

The only value I see in the efficiency figures are if there is a single energy source. It may be useful in comparing EVs with EVs, or ICE with ICE (be they hybrid or not).

PHEVs muddy the comparison because of how much electric only range is available during the test. If PHEV manufacturers could develop a vehicle that would complete the test without starting its engine then it effectively would return figures of 0l/100km.

If the manufacturers were honest and quoted combined range for a PHEV that would be more useful for comparison.

But then there is the rort that goes on in the UK where the official figure is used to set road tax. So PHEVs are used as company cars. But the reps aren’t going to use their own electricity to charge at home, so fill up on the company fuel card and lug the weight of the extra 10kWh of batteries around in ‘hybrid’ mode. Completely negating the value of having a PHEV but paying less road tax.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

jonathan18

7413 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#2946230 25-Jul-2022 15:13

Dingbatt: But then there is the rort that goes on in the UK where the official figure is used to set road tax so PHEVs are used as company cars. But the reps aren’t going to use their own electricity to charge at home, so fill up on the company fuel card and lug the weight of the extra 10kWh of batteries around in ‘hybrid’ mode. Completely negating the value of having a PHEV but paying less roasted.

Prior to the rebate being introduced here for PHEVs, were there any cost advantages to businesses buying a PHEV? It’s just that your comment above reminds me of a Toyota Prius Prime that I walk past every day, and I’ve never once seen it plugged in.

Dingbatt

6756 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2946232 25-Jul-2022 15:18

jonathan18:

Prior to the rebate being introduced here for PHEVs, were there any cost advantages to businesses buying a PHEV? It’s just that your comment above reminds me of a Toyota Prius Prime that I walk past every day, and I’ve never once seen it plugged in.

Just the “Look at me I’m green” one I guess.

Having said that. Is there anywhere for it to plug in? It’s just you don’t say whether it is a business or domestic environment.

I struggle to walk past a Prius Prime without having a little bit of sick in my mouth.😁

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

Sharesies

Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

jonathan18

7413 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#2946248 25-Jul-2022 15:45

Dingbatt:
jonathan18:

Prior to the rebate being introduced here for PHEVs, were there any cost advantages to businesses buying a PHEV? It’s just that your comment above reminds me of a Toyota Prius Prime that I walk past every day, and I’ve never once seen it plugged in.

Just the “Look at me I’m green” one I guess.

Having said that. Is there anywhere for it to plug in? It’s just you don’t say whether it is a business or domestic environment.

I struggle to walk past a Prius Prime without having a little bit of sick in my mouth.😁

Private house with the car parked in the driveway right outside the house. In that situation there’s always the option of sticking the cable out the window, which is something many EV owners do.

Totally agree re aesthetics of that design - one of the uglier cars on the road. It’s not just the outside - that back seat of the older version is just weird.

richms

28191 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2946258 25-Jul-2022 16:10

jonathan18:
Dingbatt: But then there is the rort that goes on in the UK where the official figure is used to set road tax so PHEVs are used as company cars. But the reps aren’t going to use their own electricity to charge at home, so fill up on the company fuel card and lug the weight of the extra 10kWh of batteries around in ‘hybrid’ mode. Completely negating the value of having a PHEV but paying less roasted.

Prior to the rebate being introduced here for PHEVs, were there any cost advantages to businesses buying a PHEV? It’s just that your comment above reminds me of a Toyota Prius Prime that I walk past every day, and I’ve never once seen it plugged in.

When they trialed EVs being able to use the lane at onramps PHEVs qualified, so that was one reason to get it at that time. I cant really see any viable other reason to get one unless you're dead set against multiple vehicles and need the ICE range on them.

Richard rich.ms

lchiu7

6476 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#2946329 25-Jul-2022 20:42

richms:
<snip>

When they trialed EVs being able to use the lane at onramps PHEVs qualified, so that was one reason to get it at that time. I cant really see any viable other reason to get one unless you're dead set against multiple vehicles and need the ICE range on them.

Actually I went from considering a PHEV (Ford Escape) which nearly pulled the trigger on, then to an EV driving most of them and now possibly landing on the Atto3 (unless my wife hates it after the test drive on Wednesday).

If she does then might look at the Niro and possibly the PHEV which is available soon (in a month or so) versus December for the EV. Plus the top of the line PHEV the GT-Line is $62,240 which is in the budget albeit not as cheap as the LR Atto3.

PHEVs work for us since the daily drive is < 50k so it can be charged up each night and kept on battery most of the time. Then for the rarer longer drives the petrol can kick in.

Staying in Wellington. Check out my AirBnB in the Wellington CBD. https://www.airbnb.co.nz/h/wellycbd PM me and mention GZ to get a 15% discount and no AirBnB charges.

chunkybeats

50 posts

Geek

#2946912 27-Jul-2022 13:07

felixfurtak:

quickymart:

How does it go for fuel efficiency and stuff? What's the most distance you can drive before needing to fill up?

It can easily do 900km on a tank and the tanks is fairly small I think, something like 45 litres.

Fuel efficency depends a little on whether it's urban or highway but economy is somewhere in the range of 3-4 L/100km (25-30 km/L).

I also own a 2017 Nissan Note Power, I have had it for a year and it's due for service. Brilliant car so far and I paid about $14.5k with 71ks on the clock. As for the claimed fuel economy, the best I got was 880kms and that's a mixture of city / normal roads and ECO mode.

This car was designed for urban cities, hence its huge popularity in Japan, so that claimed 1300 kms on a tank probably will never happen. I only fill the car up every 6 to 8 weeks, which is great.

Now a couple of things you should check before you dive in and buy one of these.

- The one pedal mode in Eco mode takes a little while to get used to but once you do its great and you don't need to hit the brake pedal much again. The regen is good but not too strong and unfortunately not adjustable unlike some other EVs out there.

- I have a work colleague who has a Toyota Aqua and has had his, about the same time as mine, has had nothing but issues with his. The CVT gearbox is playing up, electrical gremlins, and the rear legroom is less than the Note. He's actually thinking of getting the newer Note ePower (E13) in the future if his Aqua continues to give him trouble. I might look at that next version as well as its quite an upgrade over the 1st gen.

- My car had AC issues from the get-go, now I had taken it to lots of places to get it checked. It didn't require a regas so that wasn't the issue. Next I thought it was an actuator which is in the dash in which it wasnt (I've done a ton of research and there is a really good Note ePower FB group who mostly people from India / Pakistan but man they know their stuff and they seem to sell heaps there. I then thought lets check the cabin air filter and it was hard to get out and not damage it and it was completely filthy. I have ordered a new one online, in the meantime, I cleaned and refitted the existing one until the new one arrives and it already improved the AC! Im so glad I didn't go to a dealer for that.

- A part that I really struggled to source here in NZ was the engine air filter. Again, as per above I checked to see if the filter was clean and again was filthy as so I had to order a new one direct from Japan (cost me about $100 total inc. shipping). Here it is here if anyone needs to source one. https://www.blackhawkjapan.com/products/blitz-59633 Its super simple to install, unlike the cabin filter. It will save you money if you got a mechanic to do it and probably added extra trying to source the part.

- The standard head unit (I think its a Clarion) you get with it will be all in Japanese but you can convert it to English as there is a secret menu in there (I used Google Translate on my phone to get past the menus) then it will change to English (most of it). Also bear in mind there is an SD card for the maps in there take it out if it is the active slot as it will keep bringing up the map where you will be in the ocean. So remove it and put it in the other slot. Also once you know the menus are mostly in English you can deactivate the maps feature. I just my unit for music and phone calls (the quality is brilliant for the caller and receiver). I might upgrade and put in an Android Head unit in the future and keep the camera and microphone (they are really good quality).

- It will feel cheap in a lot of areas, this is where you notice where the costs have been saved but the safety rating is still right up there. Two things that got me were the lack of a parcel shelf and no interior light in the boot (I think it depends on the trim, my car is the X trim I think). I ended up putting a little LED sensor light in the boot and work well but just need to replace batteries every now and then.

- Last but not least its a so much fun to drive. Its 0-100km time I got was 6.5 secs from the standstill bearing in mind I have the standard ePower model. The Nismo S is a mental car and goes even quicker (hence they are more expensive and have that street appeal). I had an incident where I had a super macho man in his ginormous custom Ford Shelby Ute revving like crazy at the lights beside me and he opened his window down to me and laughed and said I looked like Mr Bean in my little nana car. Low and behold he was revving to me and challenging me to race him. I ignored him. Of course when the lights turned green the little Note took off so quickly it left that hunk of yankee scrap behind! Remember S mode in the drive mode is not sport mode (there are videos online claiming this, its actually just the normal mode you select to get the maximum pickup and speed).

As per the other user on here with their 2017 model yes the prices of these have skyrocketed, the similar model of mine with similar ks was about $20k. So there is demand for them as I have started to see more since I bought my car last year. That will be good news for parts if there is more demand.

Good luck and hope you make the move over to the ePower!!

lchiu7

6476 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#2947068 27-Jul-2022 19:22

lchiu7:

richms:
<snip>

When they trialed EVs being able to use the lane at onramps PHEVs qualified, so that was one reason to get it at that time. I cant really see any viable other reason to get one unless you're dead set against multiple vehicles and need the ICE range on them.

Actually I went from considering a PHEV (Ford Escape) which nearly pulled the trigger on, then to an EV driving most of them and now possibly landing on the Atto3 (unless my wife hates it after the test drive on Wednesday).

If she does then might look at the Niro and possibly the PHEV which is available soon (in a month or so) versus December for the EV. Plus the top of the line PHEV the GT-Line is $62,240 which is in the budget albeit not as cheap as the LR Atto3.

PHEVs work for us since the daily drive is < 50k so it can be charged up each night and kept on battery most of the time. Then for the rarer longer drives the petrol can kick in.

I have now rethought my strategy about PHEV's having had a colleague mention to me, while I might be able to run it on battery of the time, there is still an ICE in the car that needs regular maintenance irrespective of how little it might be. So back to the pure EVs for me.

Just told by a local dealer that the Niro EV is now not available in March. Sat in the Niro Hybrid and it looks and feels very nice so I would imagine the EV would be similar in the cabin.

Staying in Wellington. Check out my AirBnB in the Wellington CBD. https://www.airbnb.co.nz/h/wellycbd PM me and mention GZ to get a 15% discount and no AirBnB charges.

sen8or

1789 posts

Uber Geek

#2956072 18-Aug-2022 15:05

Putting aside the lower emissions for a minute, on a purely economic argument, is this maths correct -

Haval Jolion ICE - 8.1l/100kms quoted on specs

Haval Jolion Hybrid 5.5l/100kms quoted on specs

So assuming figures are accurate (or equally inaccurate with the gap remaining constant), thats 2.6l/100kms more efficient, at todays cost, around $6.50 in fuel every 100kms (or 6.5c/km).

Price difference between ICE and Hybrid (after rebate) is about $5k, so $5000 / .065 = 77000kms to recover the additional upfront cost of the HEV over the same specced ICE.

gzt

17145 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2956080 18-Aug-2022 15:19

That gap is approximately correct for some sedan cases. That makes your math approximately correct too.

alasta

6706 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Subscriber

#2956161 18-Aug-2022 16:10

sen8or:

Putting aside the lower emissions for a minute, on a purely economic argument, is this maths correct -

Haval Jolion ICE - 8.1l/100kms quoted on specs

Haval Jolion Hybrid 5.5l/100kms quoted on specs

So assuming figures are accurate (or equally inaccurate with the gap remaining constant), thats 2.6l/100kms more efficient, at todays cost, around $6.50 in fuel every 100kms (or 6.5c/km).

Price difference between ICE and Hybrid (after rebate) is about $5k, so $5000 / .065 = 77000kms to recover the additional upfront cost of the HEV over the same specced ICE.

Your financials aren't quite correct because you are trying to use a cost saving to offset the difference in capital value. The cost saving should instead offset the additional cost of extra depreciation and cost of capital.

Although your methodology isn't correct, your conclusion is probably still about right given that the figures I've made up here seem credible:

Fuel saving based on 77,000km travelled over five years: 770 * $6.50 = $5,000
Additional depreciation over five years: [difference in purchase price] - [difference in scrap value] = $4,000
Additional cost of capital: [interest rate] * [difference in purchase price] * 5 years = $1,000

There are some other points to consider:

The true fuel consumption ratio between petrol vs hybrid will vary depending on what type of driving you do.
Quoted fuel consumption figures tend to be lower than real world figures, so your 2.6l/100km is probably nearer to 3.0l/100km in reality subject to the above point.
Check that the specs of the two vehicles are like-for-like. i.e. is the hybrid powertrain the only difference?
Check whether the servicing costs are different as that will also impact your TCO.

1 | ... | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21