Making Public Transport Free

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~HONYAKKER!~
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#2678622 22-Mar-2021 16:51

Tom Scott has an interesting short video about free public transport in Luxembourg.

Quote: "The fare is not the main motivating factor. The motivating factor is comfort, reliability, and safety. It has happened that people are standing for an hour and a half on the platform waiting for the train, with no substitute buses or anything."

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Handle9

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#2678676 22-Mar-2021 17:03

networkn:

The traffic as bad as it is now is not desirable.

Here's the bit you really won't like.

It's going to get worse, probably much worse. It turns out that a transport policy of doing the same as we've always done but more of it produces exactly the same result as it always did. Moarrr roads, in isolation, is a horrible way to get rid of congestion in a city which is growing. It's a good way to get votes though and this is an intensely political area.

It's taken the best part of 50 years to screw it up, it'll take at least a generation of consistent investment to fix it. There's no sugar fix.

BlinkyBill

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#2678686 22-Mar-2021 17:20

Logically, a congested road delivers a better ROI than an infrequently used road. Therefore, public transport should be free everywhere else except Auckland, and Auckland should pay for it.

networkn

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#2678698 22-Mar-2021 17:37

Handle9:

networkn:

The traffic as bad as it is now is not desirable.

Here's the bit you really won't like.

It's going to get worse, probably much worse. It turns out that a transport policy of doing the same as we've always done but more of it produces exactly the same result as it always did. Moarrr roads, in isolation, is a horrible way to get rid of congestion in a city which is growing. It's a good way to get votes though and this is an intensely political area.

It's taken the best part of 50 years to screw it up, it'll take at least a generation of consistent investment to fix it. There's no sugar fix.

Well, that's flippant. My idea was to reduce congestion on the roads, reduce the requirement to expand roads more and make travel on existing roads more efficient. I'm afraid I am struggling to see how reducing the cars on the roads, by having more people in public transport isn't going to have a positive effect on road congestion. Is it a magic fix, nope, but certainly seems worthy of proper investigation.

networkn

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#2678700 22-Mar-2021 17:38

BlinkyBill:

Logically, a congested road delivers a better ROI than an infrequently used road. Therefore, public transport should be free everywhere else except Auckland, and Auckland should pay for it.

A utilized road might, a congested one, not really, surely? People sitting in a carpark type situation for 2 hours a day is not a good ROI. I guess it depends on what you consider your ROI. ROI probably wouldn't be the term I am thinking should be used.

Handle9

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#2678702 22-Mar-2021 17:40

networkn:

Handle9:

Here's the bit you really won't like.

It's going to get worse, probably much worse. It turns out that a transport policy of doing the same as we've always done but more of it produces exactly the same result as it always did. Moarrr roads, in isolation, is a horrible way to get rid of congestion in a city which is growing. It's a good way to get votes though and this is an intensely political area.

It's taken the best part of 50 years to screw it up, it'll take at least a generation of consistent investment to fix it. There's no sugar fix.

Well, that's flippant. My idea was to reduce congestion on the roads, reduce the requirement to expand roads more and make travel on existing roads more efficient. I'm afraid I am struggling to see how reducing the cars on the roads, by having more people in public transport isn't going to have a positive effect on road congestion. Is it a magic fix, nope, but certainly seems worthy of proper investigation.

It's not flippant, it's the truth. It's like climate change, no one wants to hear that climate change will require a change in life style and some things will be worse for individuals. Similarly no one wants traffic congestion but the solutions are somewhat unpalatable.

networkn

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#2678707 22-Mar-2021 17:47

Handle9:

Similarly no one wants traffic congestion but the solutions are somewhat unpalatable.

Well, I think my idea is less unpalatable than the alternative :) Costs are unpalatable, shifting them around, makes there be less cost to the people who are having to also accept other unpalatable things, like public transport failures and the other downsides of Public transport.

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blackjack17

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#2678750 22-Mar-2021 19:21

networkn:

Handle9:

Similarly no one wants traffic congestion but the solutions are somewhat unpalatable.

Well, I think my idea is less unpalatable than the alternative :) Costs are unpalatable, shifting them around, makes there be less cost to the people who are having to also accept other unpalatable things, like public transport failures and the other downsides of Public transport.

Part of the problem is that if you are sitting in traffic then you are part of the problem. Until public transport has their own right of ways then there isn't a real solution. Making it free isn't going to get most people out of their cars, making it convenient and quick will.

There should be no parking on arterials
Parking costs should reflect actual costs (get rid of council parking and most council provided parking)
T2s and T3s are a joke and anyone parking in them should be towed and heavily fined.

I have lived in countries where public transport is quicker and easier than driving (and normally cheaper). It is possible.

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SATTV

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#2678801 22-Mar-2021 20:32

I did discuss this with a friend 15 years or so ago, even make each trip$1

The issue us that the peak times they are full already and off peak times they are largely empty.

As public transport is so heavily subsidised I thought it was a no brainer.

The issue is the council no longer own the bus network ( they never owned the train network ) so this is put out to private companies that have to make a profit.

Personally If they made off peak $1 per trip it might ease help ease congestion, we still have to build roads and bus lanes to keep up with growing Auckland however, well the roading network is at least 20 years behind, you only have to look at North West Auckland ( Hobsonville Point, Whenuapai, Kumeu etc. ) to see there has been no public transport infrastructure or decent roading structure, this should have been done 20 years ago when they planned these suburbs, now they are built, growing like mad and will take another 10 - 20 years to get the roading and bus lanes correct.

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networkn

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#2678812 22-Mar-2021 20:56

blackjack17:

Part of the problem is that if you are sitting in traffic then you are part of the problem. Until public transport has their own right of ways then there isn't a real solution. Making it free isn't going to get most people out of their cars, making it convenient and quick will.

There should be no parking on arterials
Parking costs should reflect actual costs (get rid of council parking and most council provided parking)
T2s and T3s are a joke and anyone parking in them should be towed and heavily fined.
I have lived in countries where public transport is quicker and easier than driving (and normally cheaper). It is possible.

I can't agree with much of this. A Bus is how many times the size of a car, but takes how many people? More busses, less cars, seems pretty straight forward and effective.

Punishing those who have a geniune need for a car, is less effective than rewarding those who could take a car but who will compromise and take a bus if there is a cost saving to them.

Clearways are pretty heavily policed where I am. I expect it's much the same everywhere.

networkn

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#2678813 22-Mar-2021 20:59

SATTV:

I did discuss this with a friend 15 years or so ago, even make each trip$1

The issue us that the peak times they are full already and off peak times they are largely empty.

As public transport is so heavily subsidised I thought it was a no brainer.

The issue is the council no longer own the bus network ( they never owned the train network ) so this is put out to private companies that have to make a profit.

Personally If they made off peak $1 per trip it might ease help ease congestion, we still have to build roads and bus lanes to keep up with growing Auckland however, well the roading network is at least 20 years behind, you only have to look at North West Auckland ( Hobsonville Point, Whenuapai, Kumeu etc. ) to see there has been no public transport infrastructure or decent roading structure, this should have been done 20 years ago when they planned these suburbs, now they are built, growing like mad and will take another 10 - 20 years to get the roading and bus lanes correct.

John

Well, if we don't start now, then in 20 years time, people will still be saying the same things and still stuck in traffic.

I do think the offpeak free or cheap would be a good start. Try and get people to time shift a little.

networkn

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#2678814 22-Mar-2021 21:01

So, 3 pages in, are we stating that if we made public transport free, we *couldn't* realize equal cost savings in direct or indirect benefits to help counter the cost?

blackjack17

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#2678942 23-Mar-2021 08:51

networkn:

So, 3 pages in, are we stating that if we made public transport free, we *couldn't* realize equal cost savings in direct or indirect benefits to help counter the cost?

The problem is if we made public transport free it would cost say $300 odd million. At peak times the buses are already full so we would have to add a bunch more buses to places that are already nearing capacity. And these extra buses wouldn't be needed for most of the day, plus you need a whole heap of new drivers (who wouldn't be needed for most of the day). It wouldn't do anything to speed up buses or make them any nicer to travel on.

If instead that $300 million was spent on increasing the frequency and network of buses and expanding the number of bus lanes and perhaps looking at other forms of public transport ($300 million over 10 years that's a light rail network right there). It would make public transport faster and more pleasant which is going to do a whole heap more than free fares.

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networkn

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#2678949 23-Mar-2021 08:57

blackjack17:

networkn:

So, 3 pages in, are we stating that if we made public transport free, we *couldn't* realize equal cost savings in direct or indirect benefits to help counter the cost?

The problem is if we made public transport free it would cost say $300 odd million. At peak times the buses are already full so we would have to add a bunch more buses to places that are already nearing capacity. And these extra buses wouldn't be needed for most of the day, plus you need a whole heap of new drivers (who wouldn't be needed for most of the day). It wouldn't do anything to speed up buses or make them any nicer to travel on.

If instead that $300 million was spent on increasing the frequency and network of buses and expanding the number of bus lanes and perhaps looking at other forms of public transport ($300 million over 10 years that's a light rail network right there). It would make public transport faster and more pleasant which is going to do a whole heap more than free fares.

I think you are still missing the point I was making. Surely by increasing the number of people on public transport, you are reducing the number of people in cars. There should be some form of offset of costs. Perhaps not exactly equal (though I think it's not unreasonable to think you could potentially save quite a bit). How many people fit in a car vs a bus? If you had 20 busses as opposed to 200 cars, traffic will be lighter, surely?

I mean, sure, we will need to improve our public transport corridors, access etc, but, we should be doing this anyway.

Putting in rail, it's great, I applaud the concept, but it's a 10-20 year project. The Light Rail that is supposed to go down Dominion Road, I think that is going to make things so much worse.

blackjack17

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#2678958 23-Mar-2021 09:11

networkn:

I think you are still missing the point I was making. Surely by increasing the number of people on public transport, you are reducing the number of people in cars. There should be some form of offset of costs. Perhaps not exactly equal (though I think it's not unreasonable to think you could potentially save quite a bit). How many people fit in a car vs a bus? If you had 20 busses as opposed to 200 cars, traffic will be lighter, surely?

I mean, sure, we will need to improve our public transport corridors, access etc, but, we should be doing this anyway.

Putting in rail, it's great, I applaud the concept, but it's a 10-20 year project. The Light Rail that is supposed to go down Dominion Road, I think that is going to make things so much worse.

No i do get what you are saying but there just isn't the room for more buses. I cycle along Manukau road every day and I very often see bus full or drop off only buses.

I would argue (and this is my personal opinion based on talking with my students and colleagues) it isn't cost that keeps most people out of buses/public transport it is convenience and comfort.

I am very much for public transport, I just don't believe making it free would work (make it free for children, gold card and community card people yes, remove fringe benefit tax from public transport passes and apply it to staff parking yes, reduce the cost of it yes)

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