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Technofreak
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  #2901800 13-Apr-2022 10:36
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ANglEAUT:

 

insane: ... So seeing suggestions that EVs are somehow so significantly easier to maintain irks me.

 

Sorry, but there must be a reason why I only pay $70 for a service on my Leaf when others are spending $150 - $800 on a service.

 

I've done 120 000km in my 2015 24KW Leaf since early 2018. With my 25km round trip a day lately, I only have to charge every 3rd day.

 

 

Just looking at regular servicing costs is a rather simplistic way to count servicing costs. A lot of costs occur outside of a regular service. To give an example, my car, an ICE, has cost me absolutely zero to service for the 2 and half years I have owned it. However this isn't a true reflection of what it costs to run, I will shortly have to replace the tyres, suddenly my running costs increase significantly. If we want to talk about the true costs we need to amortise wear and tear over the life of the vehicle and not look at a snap shot in time.

 

The way I see it with an ICE car you pay a bit more as you go with servicing costs due to the costs associated with engine oil changes etc whereas with the EV you pay in a big lump sum later on with battery degradation requiring battery replacement or potentially significant depreciation if you sell when the battery needs replacement.

 

All the other systems will require an equal amount to be spent on ongoing repair/servicing.





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Obraik
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  #2901802 13-Apr-2022 10:40
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insane:

 



Probably not in year 0-8, but after that it's hard to judge. Tesla's might have a different depreciation curve, but you can see from the secondhand leaf market he has a point.



Also you mentioned earlier that ICE cars don't have such advanced monitoring. Bollocks, I have a vagcom for my VW and can pull any metric out under the sun, including all the engine position sensors, clutch bite points, fuel flow per injector. Then there's all the non engine/transmission sensors too.



I know an engine is the most complicated part in an ICE car, but the rest of the car ICE or EV has plenty of opportunity for failure and some require occasional maintenance. Cooling, braking, suspension, power steering, drive shafts/CVs, shocks, bearings, electrical, infotainment, airbags, safety sensors, cameras, elec windows and locks, weather seals, door hinges, they all need attention over time. So seeing suggestions that EVs are somehow so significantly easier to maintain irks me.

 

I don't think you can really claim the deprecation of the entire EV class based on the Leaf. The Leaf is a special case in that it has poor battery management and loses range quicker than any other vehicle. It's not like ICE vehicles hold their value well - I had a second hand 2007 BMW 5 series wagon that was around around $130k when new but I purchased it for $15k in 2016. I think it's more a case of more expensive vehicles having a higher depreciation rate than cheaper vehicles.

 

ICE vehicles have more expensive regular maintenance compared to EV. An ICE needs regular fluid changes and some of those can be expensive. An engine is also rather complicated today - a $5 part might fail on it but because it's burried so deep in the engine it ends up costing thousands in labour to be able to repair it. That's where the maintenance claims come from.





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  #2901816 13-Apr-2022 11:16
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I haven't bought a 2nd EV and on the question of whether I would in the future, Yes but not yet.

 

I promised myself that the next vehicle we bought would be an EV but I wasn't expecting to replace either of our two current vehicles in the next 5 years. However my wife now wants to change her car as its let her down once and I'm contemplating another ICE as I'm just not ready for an EV yet. Five years from now the choice available in the 2nd hand EV market for a 1-2 yr old car with a healthy battery would be so much more than what's available today. Our current solution is that she's no in my car and I'm in hers until we decided what to do.




Obraik
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  #2901819 13-Apr-2022 11:29
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Senecio:

 

I haven't bought a 2nd EV and on the question of whether I would in the future, Yes but not yet.

 

I promised myself that the next vehicle we bought would be an EV but I wasn't expecting to replace either of our two current vehicles in the next 5 years. However my wife now wants to change her car as its let her down once and I'm contemplating another ICE as I'm just not ready for an EV yet. Five years from now the choice available in the 2nd hand EV market for a 1-2 yr old car with a healthy battery would be so much more than what's available today. Our current solution is that she's no in my car and I'm in hers until we decided what to do.

 

 

What's your budget for your wifes car?





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MikeAqua
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  #2901832 13-Apr-2022 11:45
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Batman:

 

i have no idea how flooring the accelerator destroys the battery. 

 

does playing games on your phone destroy the battery and only doing text messages protect the battery?

 

no. it's how you charge the battery that protects or destroys it.

 

i'd happily buy a secondhand EV off you but i won't buy an ICE off you.

 

yes i have 4 ICEs in my house :)

 

(but mostly drive a Leaf)

 

 

My rationale is the more power you draw, the hotter the battery gets and the shorter it's life will be.  And yes I have experienced graphic intensive games causing a phone to get quite hot and the battery life to rapidly reduce. I pretty much destroyed my iPhone battery with a tower defence game.  And Ditto laptops, I've ruined a battery running stochastic models without from mains power. A corded drill lasts for decades, a drill battery not so much.  Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my rationale.  

 

My ICEs all last to 300,000km plus, despite getting caned.  IIRC the Pajero was around the 400,000km mark when I sold it and it was a tow vehicle.  I'm in the camp of always warm up the engine and drive it like you stole it from day 1.  Modern Japanese engines are just so robust IME. BTW I used to manage a rental car fleet.





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  #2901835 13-Apr-2022 11:48
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MikeAqua:

 

My rationale is the more power you draw, the hotter the battery gets and the shorter it's life will be.  And yes I have experienced graphic intensive games causing a phone to get quite hot and the battery life to rapidly reduce. I pretty much destroyed my iPhone battery with a tower defence game.  And Ditto laptops, I've ruined a battery running stochastic models without from mains power. A corded drill lasts for decades, a drill battery not so much.  Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my rationale.  

 

My ICEs all last to 300,000km plus, despite getting caned.  IIRC the Pajero was around the 400,000km mark when I sold it and it was a tow vehicle.  I'm in the camp of always warm up the engine and drive it like you stole it from day 1.  Modern Japanese engines are just so robust IME. BTW I used to manage a rental car fleet.

 

 

you do realise most EV's have active battery management and will reduce the power output if its being used outside its parametres

 

much like a smart phone does.


Obraik
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  #2901839 13-Apr-2022 11:51
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MikeAqua:

 

My rationale is the more power you draw, the hotter the battery gets and the shorter it's life will be.  And yes I have experienced graphic intensive games causing a phone to get quite hot and the battery life to rapidly reduce. I pretty much destroyed my iPhone battery with a tower defence game.  And Ditto laptops, I've ruined a battery running stochastic models without from mains power. A corded drill lasts for decades, a drill battery not so much.  Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my rationale.  

 

My ICEs all last to 300,000km plus, despite getting caned.  IIRC the Pajero was around the 400,000km mark when I sold it and it was a tow vehicle.  I'm in the camp of always warm up the engine and drive it like you stole it from day 1.  Modern Japanese engines are just so robust IME. BTW I used to manage a rental car fleet.

 

 

That's a poor rationale. Nearly all EVs excluding the Leaf have active thermal management of the battery pack. They make sure the pack stays the same temp. You can't compare your smartphone battery experience to an EV battery lol.





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MikeAqua
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  #2901856 13-Apr-2022 11:57
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Obraik:

 

That's a poor rationale. Nearly all EVs excluding the Leaf have active thermal management of the battery pack. They make sure the pack stays the same temp. You can't compare your smartphone battery experience to an EV battery lol.

 

 

The comparison was to answer Batman's specific question. 

 

Are you saying that if an EV battery gets warm, the car limits how much power can be drawn?





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Obraik
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  #2901858 13-Apr-2022 11:58
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MikeAqua:

 

The comparison was to answer Batman's specific question. 

 

Are you saying that if an EV battery gets warm, the car limits how much power can be drawn?

 

 

No, I'm saying it increases its cooling.





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Geektastic
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  #2901861 13-Apr-2022 12:07
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Bought a used Leaf from a Nissan dealer.

 

 

 

Range proved inadequate so we sold it 8 months later and bought a hybrid Jazz.

 

 

 

I would not buy one now that had less than 500 - 600 kms of range.






  #2901863 13-Apr-2022 12:08
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Geektastic:

 

Bought a used Leaf from a Nissan dealer.

 

 

 

Range proved inadequate so we sold it 8 months later and bought a hybrid Jazz.

 

 

 

I would not buy one now that had less than 500 - 600 kms of range.

 

 

your post is full of useful information....

 

Most EV's have no where near that sort of range so i have no idea why you would buy one in the first place.


MikeAqua
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  #2901864 13-Apr-2022 12:10
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Obraik:

 

No, I'm saying it increases its cooling.

 

 

That's cool (🤡).  Is part of the battery output reserved for the cooling system or does it have priority over the motors?





Mike


  #2901865 13-Apr-2022 12:12
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MikeAqua:

 

Obraik:

 

No, I'm saying it increases its cooling.

 

 

That's cool (🤡).  Is part of the battery output reserved for the cooling system or does it have priority over the motors?

 

 

its likely run off the 12v system which is charged from the high voltage system


Geektastic
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  #2901875 13-Apr-2022 12:25
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Jase2985:

 

Geektastic:

 

Bought a used Leaf from a Nissan dealer.

 

 

 

Range proved inadequate so we sold it 8 months later and bought a hybrid Jazz.

 

 

 

I would not buy one now that had less than 500 - 600 kms of range.

 

 

your post is full of useful information....

 

Most EV's have no where near that sort of range so i have no idea why you would buy one in the first place.

 

 

 

 

It was intended for my wife's 14km a day commute to the station with periodic 100km trips. The faff of waiting 11 hours for it to charge and so on, combined with the lack of range, prompted her to get rid of it sooner than she had imagined she would.

 

Turns out petrol is just a great deal easier and more convenient at the moment.






  #2901882 13-Apr-2022 12:31
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Geektastic:

 

It was intended for my wife's 14km a day commute to the station with periodic 100km trips. The faff of waiting 11 hours for it to charge and so on, combined with the lack of range, prompted her to get rid of it sooner than she had imagined she would.

 

Turns out petrol is just a great deal easier and more convenient at the moment.

 

 

you could have put in a more powerful charger

 

but it just goes to show that an EV isnt for you. An EV will likely never be as convenient as a petrol car for filling up.


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