Outlander runout - are these any good?

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Batman

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#3007581 9-Dec-2022 05:15

with CVT imagine the car is pulled by a rubber band.

you press the gas, first the rubber band stretches, then eventually the car moves.

can be very annoying if you want instant response.

great for fuel economy.

MikeB4

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#3007591 9-Dec-2022 07:59

What has more misinformation said about it, vehicle transmissions or the shape and age of the planet. I think it is about equal.

MikeAqua

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#3007595 9-Dec-2022 08:14

We have one at work. Nice little vehicle, provided you're in one of the front seats. The back seat is very light on cushioning

Mike

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#3007602 9-Dec-2022 08:16

MikeB4: What has more misinformation said about it, vehicle transmissions or the shape and age of the planet. I think it is about equal.

I have had a Nissan Xtrail brand new CVT

I have a Subaru with 300hp with CVT

Believe me, I have spent hours on end with my 2 mistress who were both called sweetee, I have gotten to know them intimately and this is how it treats me every time.

But if you stick sweetee into a fixed ratio it responds instantly. A bit like an underpaid butler.

scuwp

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#3007655 9-Dec-2022 09:49

Batman:

with CVT imagine the car is pulled by a rubber band.

you press the gas, first the rubber band stretches, then eventually the car moves.

can be very annoying if you want instant response.

great for fuel economy.

Only experience has been with a Nissan CVT. Description as far as general "feel" when accelerating is bang on, however I did find that this was deceptive, and in fact the car was accelerating very quickly even though it didn't feel like it. Had to be careful at times.

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Loismustdye

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#3007711 9-Dec-2022 12:07

scuwp:

Batman:

with CVT imagine the car is pulled by a rubber band.

you press the gas, first the rubber band stretches, then eventually the car moves.

can be very annoying if you want instant response.

great for fuel economy.

Only experience has been with a Nissan CVT. Description as far as general "feel" when accelerating is bang on, however I did find that this was deceptive, and in fact the car was accelerating very quickly even though it didn't feel like it. Had to be careful at times.

can agree with this, we had a Suzuki Kizashi with CVT and felt the feel was pretty good for accelerating. Cheap as chips to run and deceptively quick, had to often check the speed as we were often travelling faster than expected. If the Mitzi one is anything like that was it would be great imho. Honestly one of my favourite vehicles I’ve ever owned and even now 3 years later I miss it

Scott3

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#3007724 9-Dec-2022 13:55

duckDecoy:

Is CVT bad? Like would this be a reason not to look at this car?

CVT's are extremely common these days

If you want to insist on a Non CVT, your shopping options are going to be dramatically less.

Belt CVT Pros:

Relatively cheap
Better fuel economy than a conventional auto
No shift shock (unless the automaker has programmed the transmision to fake being a conventional auto like Subaru does)

Belt CVT Cons:

Some drivers don't like the sound / feel of the engine flaring under acceleration.
Can be slower / less efficient a moving off from a dead stop than other gearbox types.
System is reliant on friction, which limits the amount of torque they can handle (likely why the diesel outlander gets a conventional auto), and leads to some concerns about durability in applications involving lots of towing etc.

I have no issue with CVT's. Quite like the concept of infinite gear ratio's, and how this means that the engine can be run at the RPM optimal for the situation (to balance power needs with fuel consumption).

Haven't driven the 3rd gen outlander, but have spent a lot of time in the 2nd gen one. As an example of how it would work, under foot to the floor acceleration from a stop, the engine would jump fairly quickly to around 3k RPM, then ramp up to whatever peak power was (5.something k ROm), over the next couple of seconds. Engine RPM would then remain constant, despite speed increasing. Once at peak power RPM, the engine sound is a constant tone, as opposed to the normal accelerating car sounds of other transmission types, but it is ringing every bit of power out of the engine as possible.

On reliability, Certain CVT models from Nissan spinoff brand Jatco are known to be problematic. And example would be the transmission fitted to the 4th Gen Nissan Pathfinder (early models at least). The outlander (2nd gen at least) also used Jatco CVT, but I understand it was one of the good models. The 2nd gen out lander we had in the family for 250,000km which included a decent chunk of towing at the cars full tow rating never had any issues.

As others have said they are fluid sensitive. Fluid is kinda expensive and should be replaced as per the schedule.

Other types of CVT:

Launch gear CVT (for example 2018+ Rav4 2.0L) - Have a normal gear to get the car moving, then shift onto the bottom ratio of the cvt system. - avoids weaknesses of the CVT at getting the car moving, and allows the Belt CVT to be optimized for high speeds, given it dosn't need to deal with very low speeds.

e-CVT (Toyota / Lexus Hybrids) - No frictional belt, uses gears and multiple motors to give the changes in ratio. Have it in my 200kW Lexus RX400h, and it is a great setup. Super smooth and powerful.

If you want to avoid CVT's all together, cars like the CX-5 and Sportage have conventional auto's. And everything pure electric is single speed direct drive (except the Taycan which has two gears).

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alasta

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#3007727 9-Dec-2022 14:13

Scott3:

If you want to avoid CVT's all together, cars like the CX-5 and Sportage have conventional auto's. And everything pure electric is single speed direct drive (except the Taycan which has two gears).

Mazda's transmissions are actually quite complex as they have multiple lock-up clutches so that the torque converter can be locked up at lower speeds. Despite the complexity they still seem to have good reliability.

I am not familiar with CVTs so I am curious as to how they launch from a standstill. Do they have a torque converter or some sort of automated clutch?

Scott3

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#3007797 9-Dec-2022 16:09

alasta:

Scott3:

If you want to avoid CVT's all together, cars like the CX-5 and Sportage have conventional auto's. And everything pure electric is single speed direct drive (except the Taycan which has two gears).

Mazda's transmissions are actually quite complex as they have multiple lock-up clutches so that the torque converter can be locked up at lower speeds. Despite the complexity they still seem to have good reliability.

I am not familiar with CVTs so I am curious as to how they launch from a standstill. Do they have a torque converter or some sort of automated clutch?

They have a torque converter (with a lockup for higher speeds).

Regarding the launch performance. There are a couple of properties of belt style CVT's which impact engineering decisions:

They are most efficient away from the ends of their range range.
Range of CVT is limited (without increasing size / cost / weight of unit).

The combination of the above factors means it is tempting for engineers to have a higher bottom ratio than would be typical in a conventional manual / auto gearbox. This means that you get more range at the top end. This means lower RPM possible in high speed, low load driving situations, and common driving can be closer to the midpoint of the range, both of which are good for economy. But give the same impact of moving off in a slightly higher gear (Not as much as moving off in 2nd, but that gives you the idea).

Of course, this varies by CVT design. Never noticed any issue with moving off from a stop in the 2nd gen outlander, and we crawled up some seriously step hills. But grandparents noticed a change for the worse when they moved from from a conventional auto Honda Jazz, to a CVT one, and went back to an auto one when they next changed their car - this is many years back.

Toyota launch gear CVT marketing image:

Launch gear

https://global.toyota/en/mobility/tnga/powertrain2018/cvt/

Note how the addition of the launch gear has moved the lower gearing lower, compared to a typical CVT (which would make it similar to a conventional auto), While also allowing the ratio range of the belt to be reduced, and the max ratio available to increase. This means the Belt bit of the CVT doesn't need to handle launching, so be optimized elsewhere. Made smaller, cheaper, lighter, faster shifting, more efficient etc.

As you would expect with a torque converter, CVT's are much more similar to a conventional auto to drive, than other transmission types (manual, automated manual, DCG)

DonH

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#3007837 9-Dec-2022 17:51

I went from an auto (2000 vintage 1.5 Toyota) to a CVT (2010 2.4 Toyota) about 6 months ago. I used to get 7 to 11 L/100KM in the 1.5, depending on mix of city/highway. With the same driving style I get 9.5 to 12.5 L/100KM out of the CVT, in spite of it having a bigger engine and weighing 50% more. I ascribe this to the aggressive management of the CVT. On moving off from rest there's a quick burst of revs to 2500 or so because it doesn't know how much power you are going to want, but once underway if you maintain the same amount of accelerator it changes ratio until it's ticking over at 1000 to 1200 rpm but still accelerating. It does take a bit of getting used to if you're used to judging your speed by the engine revs. It reminds me of when I learned to drive (in a 1930s Morris Cowley) where I was taught not to linger through the gears for best economy.

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cddt

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#3008416 11-Dec-2022 12:14

We got one of the runout models 12 months ago. Upgrading from a 2005 sedan. Much easier to fit the kids in it, and additional safety of the newer models gives a bit more peace of mind with the crazy drivers out there.

Did the calculations for the PHEV/BEV equivalent, at this price the petrol car will still be cheaper over the long run, unless petrol ends up at $10/L, in which case we'll all have bigger things to worry about...

Very happy with it given the price point. Looked at CX-5 etc. but couldn't justify the additional cost.

duckDecoy

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#3008422 11-Dec-2022 12:50

Thanks for all the replies. We bought one.

According to the salesman we bought the very last one available, but not sure I believe it (unless they meant the very last one available from their showroom but that's not what he said). Have to wait for it to be delivered which might not be until Xmas, which surprised me.

Boy did they push the DuraSeal coating. Like HARD. Declined (thanks to reading another Geekzone thread)

old3eyes

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#3008441 11-Dec-2022 13:39

duckDecoy:

Thanks for all the replies. We bought one.

According to the salesman we bought the very last one available, but not sure I believe it (unless they meant the very last one available from their showroom but that's not what he said). Have to wait for it to be delivered which might not be until Xmas, which surprised me.

Boy did they push the DuraSeal coating. Like HARD. Declined (thanks to reading another Geekzone thread)

I've had DuraSeal on several new Toyotas' and never had a problem.

Regards,

Old3eyes

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#3008442 11-Dec-2022 13:41

Enjoy the new car.

Even if they threw it in for free as a perk I would still refuse Dura-Seal. Horrible stuff.

cddt

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#3008503 11-Dec-2022 15:37

I can't help but wonder if DuraSeal, to achieve its water repellent and stain resistance properties, contains some of those [per|poly]-fluoroalkyl substances (a.k.a "forever chemicals") which are now being implicated in the decline in human fertility.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per-_and_polyfluoroalkyl_substances#Human_health_concerns_associated_with_PFASs

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