RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

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#3194155 11-Feb-2024 22:18

SaltyNZ:

Scott3:

General example use case for a PHEV with say a 40km Electric range, would be a person who has a 30km round trip commute (or 30km each way way if they can charge at both ends), that they do 5 days a week, 48 weeks a year, but the owner also uses the car for a long trip that is poorly served by fast charging twice a year, which makes a pure EV unattractive.

In which case you're probably still better off buying an EV and renting an ICE for that long trip. Of which there can't be very many these days and will become increasingly rarer.

Perhaps it was a week example to use, given that NZ's charging network is getting pretty comprehensive (assuming both a modern 350km+ range EV, and willingness to wait around at 50kW chargers).

Unless ones one is driving a low range EV (either an old leaf like mine, or a modern EV towing a big trailer), there are now few poorly served fast charging route's.

The rental car situation can work well in some situations where:

Travel is planned well in advance
Often travel on routes well served by flight routes - I.e. fly to the other island and rent a car their, saving a lot of time and ferry costs compared to taking your own car.
Travel is generally outside peak periods
Limited needs regarding type of vehicle (i.e. Ok with a corolla hatch).
Close to rental car locations

However it is problematic in other situations:

Emergency / last minute travel (many rental car offices close at night)
Specific vehicle needs - i.e. 7 seater, towbar can greatly add to the cost of a rental car. Other things like a roof rack (other than for snow sports) / roof box / bike rack are basically not catered for by the rental industry, but a holiday staple for many families
Off road capability & insurance (generally off road is not insured on rental cars)
Located far from rental offices
Peak time rental cars can be really expensive. If one lived in queenstown, and wanted to rent the biggest SUV apex had for the July school holiday (2 weeks), and two weeks at christmas, the fortuner would cost $5,405.4 with maximum excess reduction cover... Well more than most people spend on fuel & RUC in a year.

Scott3

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#3194163 11-Feb-2024 23:06

RUKI: My mate yesterday showed zero interest towards RUC related news. He said their two petrol cars are doing about 10.000kms p.a. I mentioned to him there is drop of fuel tax from the end of June, he did not show any excitement. I then said, RUC for petrol cars is coming. Again, no reaction. I know he can count money well. I asked: any plans to change cars, perhaps Hybrid or PHEV? Nope, they are focused on other priorities, like diet and travel.
My conclusion after that discussion: someone could be very much concerned or even stressed about RUC and its fairness, while others just do not care. Wonder who sleeps better at night? They go to bed at 9p.m. Time when my day is not even near over yet :)

I'm mostly interested in the policy discussion, partially the impact that policies will have on behavior.

I am a bit irritated that our Nissan leaf will end up paying 2.4x the road tax of a Yaris hybrid.

But realistically it will have an immaterial impact on us. We have a high income & short commutes (and some working from home). Suspect much of Geekzone is in a similar situation.

In terms of behavior, once the RUC's kick in, it will make little sense for use to take the leaf on any trip that requires fast charging, as we are not saving much vs taking our other car. That said do this rarely now anyway as the combination of battery degradation (less range & slower fast charging), and a heap more charger congestion over the least two years.

BlakJak:

No point in worrying about it. My automotive costs are chiefly cost-of-living-life type expenses, and whether I'm paying taxes at the pump or in RUC i'll still be paying it, and perhaps fortunately, i'm likely to be able to manage one way or the other with a little bit of pre-planning. RUC will not suit people who live closer to the margins and who put petrol in their vehicles $20 at a time, because now they've gotta find a lumpier sum of money ($76) periodically, and that's harder to do when you're running a hand-to-mouth style budget. But if you're not there, it's just moving the expense from column A to column B.

(There's a political argument here I won't go into, also).

Where I do get grumpy is where bureaucracy is created unnecessarily, and where the the authorities wangle the figures to ultimately see us paying more.

If buying the minimum block size that's $76 + admin fee....

SaltyNZ

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2degrees

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#3194183 12-Feb-2024 08:30

Scott3:

Emergency / last minute travel (many rental car offices close at night)
Specific vehicle needs - i.e. 7 seater, towbar can greatly add to the cost of a rental car. Other things like a roof rack (other than for snow sports) / roof box / bike rack are basically not catered for by the rental industry, but a holiday staple for many families
Off road capability & insurance (generally off road is not insured on rental cars)
Located far from rental offices
Peak time rental cars can be really expensive. If one lived in queenstown, and wanted to rent the biggest SUV apex had for the July school holiday (2 weeks), and two weeks at christmas, the fortuner would cost $5,405.4 with maximum excess reduction cover... Well more than most people spend on fuel & RUC in a year.

Yes, those things would be a pain in the neck, but you don't buy a car based on a hypothetical emergency. Well, you shouldn't anyway. Your original scenario was "we do this twice a year" which very much implies can be easily planned in advance. You might just was well worry that it's impossible to find an emergency bach in Whangamata over Christmas time. It is, but that's not really an emergency, is it?

I don't think you'll find many PHEVs on the market are off-road vehicles either. Some are AWD, but that's not the same at all.

Finally, if one lived in Queenstown and wanted the biggest SUV for the July school holidays, one is likely to have an annual income more than sufficient to just buy an EV that will cover that use case. It's not exactly Otara.

Personally I think the main reason for a PHEV over a BEV is if your weekly commute is short enough to fit into the small EV range, but you regularly tow heavy things more than about 100km. Many EVs are fine to tow moderate loads, it just cuts down your range and it's a PITA to try to fast charge while towing - mostly you need to find somewhere to unhitch. If you're just towing a boat locally, you probably don't even need a PHEV for that.

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Scott3

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#3194195 12-Feb-2024 09:40

SaltyNZ:

Scott3:

Emergency / last minute travel (many rental car offices close at night)
Specific vehicle needs - i.e. 7 seater, towbar can greatly add to the cost of a rental car. Other things like a roof rack (other than for snow sports) / roof box / bike rack are basically not catered for by the rental industry, but a holiday staple for many families
Off road capability & insurance (generally off road is not insured on rental cars)
Located far from rental offices
Peak time rental cars can be really expensive. If one lived in queenstown, and wanted to rent the biggest SUV apex had for the July school holiday (2 weeks), and two weeks at christmas, the fortuner would cost $5,405.4 with maximum excess reduction cover... Well more than most people spend on fuel & RUC in a year.

Yes, those things would be a pain in the neck, but you don't buy a car based on a hypothetical emergency. Well, you shouldn't anyway. Your original scenario was "we do this twice a year" which very much implies can be easily planned in advance. You might just was well worry that it's impossible to find an emergency bach in Whangamata over Christmas time. It is, but that's not really an emergency, is it?

I don't think you'll find many PHEVs on the market are off-road vehicles either. Some are AWD, but that's not the same at all.

Finally, if one lived in Queenstown and wanted the biggest SUV for the July school holidays, one is likely to have an annual income more than sufficient to just buy an EV that will cover that use case. It's not exactly Otara.

Personally I think the main reason for a PHEV over a BEV is if your weekly commute is short enough to fit into the small EV range, but you regularly tow heavy things more than about 100km. Many EVs are fine to tow moderate loads, it just cuts down your range and it's a PITA to try to fast charge while towing - mostly you need to find somewhere to unhitch. If you're just towing a boat locally, you probably don't even need a PHEV for that.

A lot of people do factor emergencies into their buying decisions. An example would be where they have an elderly family member, or a child who has recently left home in a city a few hours drive away, and they want the ability to drop everything and go immediately in the event of a medical or similar emergency.

On AWD, it is a must have feature for a lot of buyers these days. I think this is more of a marketing success, than an actual need, but people spending $60k+ can be fussy with what they want.

On the queens town example, Even if one is high income (note the high cost of living in that city could eat into that income a lot), the jump in cost can be too much to justify. As an example if one wanted an 7 seat AWD SUV, in the PHEV space they can get the $69k outlander, but in the Pure EV space, they would need to step up to the $116k EV9 AWD. That's a heap more money, even for a high income household...

Towing is a good example too.

RUKI

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#3194430 12-Feb-2024 20:26

@scott3 re: AWD - fun fact: I have been driving various cars in extreme conditions for many years, but never had AWD/4WD. NZ roads in comparison to what I had experienced (sub zero temperatures, deep snow, ice and over 25 degrees inclinations on a daily basis) is a ballroom dancing floor - smooth ride all the way (with rare gravel AKA metal to some resorts).
IMO - AWD/4WD are overrated. Maybe the only application for them is to tow a boat which I still have to try one day...

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mudguard

2120 posts

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#3194456 13-Feb-2024 06:26

RUKI: @scott3 re: AWD - fun fact: I have been driving various cars in extreme conditions for many years, but never had AWD/4WD. NZ roads in comparison to what I had experienced (sub zero temperatures, deep snow, ice and over 25 degrees inclinations on a daily basis) is a ballroom dancing floor - smooth ride all the way (with rare gravel AKA metal to some resorts).
IMO - AWD/4WD are overrated. Maybe the only application for them is to tow a boat which I still have to try one day...

I've pondered this too. Friends seem to be really keen on having AWD by default rather than for a specific purpose. I've done about 500,000kms now for my job which means driving between Kaitaia and Invervargill. And in that time I can think of two occasions where I might have preferred 4WD. Once was in snow near Invercargill, and the second was Arthur's Pass where it had just begun to snow. As it was I was in rental cars anyway and they were 4WD. We get offered chains each time we get a 4WD rental car, and my logic is, if I need chains I'm turning around!

I can see it if you have a boat and launch at slippery ramps, or tow something heavy, but otherwise it's a lot more fuel and maintenance.

johno1234

2809 posts

Uber Geek

#3194463 13-Feb-2024 07:27

It’s only a little more fuel and almost zero more maintenance in my experience. Weight, driving style and tyre pressure have a larger economy impact. The big cost is price therefore interest and depreciation.

I have stuck with awd for a long time for towing boats, skiing/snow and mainly safety.

Modern awd is safer and more predictable. I once attended an Audi Quattro Experience day and it really rammed this home when you performed scenarios in both awd and fwd cars.

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exador

95 posts

Master Geek

#3194485 13-Feb-2024 08:02

Modern awd is safer and more predictable. I once attended an Audi Quattro Experience day and it really rammed this home when you performed scenarios in both awd and fwd cars.

Audi drivers believe that the Laws of Physics don’t apply to them…

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/waikato-news/news/police-seek-not-very-smart-driver-of-audi-that-crashed-onto-footpath-in-hamilton-this-morning/FHV7DJBFMO6FUNWHJZDMJVCEMQ/

alasta

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#3194501 13-Feb-2024 08:48

For me AWD is an insurance policy - I expect to rarely need it but one day it could save me from major strife. A good example was when I went to Wings over Wairarapa late last year and the paddock reserved for car parking was bogged up with mud due to heavy rain the previous day.

HarmLessSolutions

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#3194541 13-Feb-2024 10:03

My take on the AWD situation is that the it is required in order to get the 300+kW of power and huge off the mark torque of many EVs to the road. That much power in a 2WD vehicle requires some fairly high driving skills in order to keep your car between the white lines.

AWD, and particularly FWD, is also beneficial in terms of battery regen as the front wheels do most of the braking (due to weight transfer) so therefore can contribute most towards regen.

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