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Scott3
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  #3070833 3-May-2023 14:47
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On the Clean Car discount changes, I feel the outcome was largly in line with what I expected. There was no way we could afford to keep paying Rebates on stuff burning 5+ L/100km in 2023.

 

That said, if I was writing the policy I would have done some stuff differently:

 

  • Got rid of the clean car fee cap. Just have it uncapped. Would force the media / opponents to pick an example and calculate the fee for it, rather than just putting a photo of a ranger and saying Up to $6,900 fee (when most rangers will pay a way lower fee).
  • Tried as hard a possible not to cut the EV rebate. I don't feel it is the time to be reducing incentives for EV's yet.
  • Cut the PHEV incentive - Unlike EV's, the emmision saving here are highly dependent on how they are operated.
  • Tiered the PHEV incentive. Something like a Mini contryman with 40km of electric range (and bad fuel economy in hybrid mode), is quite a different offering to a Volvo V60 PHEV, with 91km of WLTP range.
  • Put more eligibility requirements(in addition to the current sub $80k & 3 star safety):

     

    • Require an immobilizer (Reduce the Aqua's reputation as the poster ram raid car) - dealers will retrofit as it is cheaper than the value of the rebate.
    • For new EV's, PHEV's require a minimum traction battery warranty (say 8 years or 160,000km with 70% minimum retention) - basically the same as the federal minimum requirements in the USA - California goes further, 10 years or 240,000km. Will do a lot to alleviate buyer concerns, and I don't think we should be paying out thousands of rebates to any brand which doesn't back the battery to last a decent amount of time.
  • Put an age cap on the used rebate. Perhaps 8 years (rounded to whole year of first registration numbers). Key issue here is the 2011 - 2013 leaf has a battery chemistry that is very prone to degradation. We should not be paying out $3500 to subsidize the import of a 2011 leaf with a battery at the cusp of starting to have cells fail. We want to be importing cars that have at least half their useful life left. Should note NZ already has ample supply of 24kWh leaf's as this was our dominant EV for many years, for those who really want one.
  • Get rid of the hybrid-specific mobility vehicle exemption. Use a metric like g/km CO2 instead if you really want to crack to the media articles quoting Milner Mobility. I question the mobility category at all. Lots of industries are hurt by the clean car discount, but this is the price of reducing the emissions profile of vehicles entering our fleet.
  • Introduce a new $100k price cap for vehicles with particular attributes:

     

    • Pure Electric Vehicles with a large payload (say greater than 740kg) - Should capture Utes, Larger Cargo Van's, and larger electric passenger van's Frankly meeting the $80k price cap with these types of vehicles isn't going to be possible in the next couple of years for non china brands.
    • Pure electric Vehicles with 8+ seats
    • Pure Electric Vehicles with both AWD / 4wd & 200mm+ ground clearance (between axles, unladen) - No brand is yet to get an AWD EV under the $80k cap, and rareness of EV's with at least weak off road ability is quite a pain point. Hopefully EV's meeting my criteria will appear on the market soon.
  • I would get rid of the half price clean car fees for used imports, and charge both new and used at full price (but keep the half sized rebates. I don't see why somebody importing say a a Dodge challenger, or a 2020 toyota prado, should get half price emissions fees vs somebody buying a new ford mustang V8, or Prado.

Unrelated to the clean car discount, but I would also introduce an include Pure EV's under 4250kg as light vehicles (so no need for COF and 90km/h speed limit). Larger petrol / diesel vehicles are already approaching 3,500kg GVM (Ranger v6 wiltrak is 3350kg, Hiace ZX Panel Van 3500kg, nissan Patrol Y62 3500kg GVM). Any electric equivalents are going to be 300 - 500kg heavier. If we want electric versions of these style of vehicles to be viable in NZ, we need to allow them extra weight. Especially pressing with van's already Toyota NZ doesn't bother to offer 12 seat passenger version of the hiace likely due to this reason, instead offering a 10 seat version (12 seat is available in Aust. 3710kg & 3720kg GVM for each of the two versions)

 

I picked 4,250kg as this is where the UK has moved their Drivers licensing limit to for alternative fuel vehicles, so there are a good number of van's optimized for that threshold. Note that in NZ on a full car license one can already drive up to 6000kg, so that is not an issue here, and I don't propose to change that limit. On safety, the light / heavy threshold is just arbitrary anyway, and one can drive a 3500kg car and 3500kg trailer on Just WOF's anyway (class 2 licence needed), and I would expect a 4250kg van to be dynamically a lot bigger than any rig with a big trailer. Note that really heavy American stuff like the Hummer EV is so heavy it would still miss the 4250kg GVM threshold.




RunningMan
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  #3070840 3-May-2023 15:07
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GV27:[snip] The Leaf remains an excellent city car with lots of cameras and a decent turning circle. It really is just an LFP battery and Type 2 (or at least 100kw Chademo) away from being a perfectly modern EV.

 

And much better battery thermal management.


Obraik
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  #3070851 3-May-2023 15:29
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The Leaf has been cancelled by Nissan so it's never going to have the chance to be the perfect EV.





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Batman
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  #3070854 3-May-2023 15:43
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Scott3:

 

  • Got rid of the clean car fee cap. Just have it uncapped. Would force the media / opponents to pick an example and calculate the fee for it, rather than just putting a photo of a ranger and saying Up to $6,900 fee (when most rangers will pay a way lower fee).

 

just as all Nissan Leafs price shot up $3700 overnight, if you did that all EV will magically go up in price by $8650 overnight

 

i'd prefer for the threshold to reduce by $5000 every 2 years or something so that car makers will make cheaper cars, or something similar to achieve that effect


Scott3
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  #3070865 3-May-2023 15:56
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Batman:

 

Scott3:

 

  • Got rid of the clean car fee cap. Just have it uncapped. Would force the media / opponents to pick an example and calculate the fee for it, rather than just putting a photo of a ranger and saying Up to $6,900 fee (when most rangers will pay a way lower fee).

 

just as all Nissan Leafs price shot up $3700 overnight, if you did that all EV will magically go up in price by $8650 overnight

 

i'd prefer for the threshold to reduce by $5000 every 2 years or something so that car makers will make cheaper cars, or something similar to achieve that effect

 

 

I may not have worded that so well. I think you are talking about the rebate cap? I was talking about a the maximum fee under the clean car discount. i.e. I have no issue with a Rolls Royce Cullinan being charged $13,000.

 

 

 

 

 


Batman
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  #3070874 3-May-2023 16:11
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Scott3:

 

I may not have worded that so well. I think you are talking about the rebate cap? I was talking about a the maximum fee under the clean car discount. i.e. I have no issue with a Rolls Royce Cullinan being charged $13,000.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ah, election year

 

maybe so it doesn't affect commercial vehicles like courier vans and trucks?


alasta
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  #3070888 3-May-2023 16:12
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I have no ability to charge a car at home and only use the car for trips out of town so I'm struggling to figure out how someone in my position is supposed to react to the policy changes. As I see it my options are:

 

  • Full Electric or Plug-in Hybrid : Capital outlay is too high to be financially viable for my use case even with the subsidy.
  • Petrol Hybrid : Options seem limited as Toyota have a waiting list out to 2024, Kona is too small and I don't want to take a punt on something Chinese. That really only leaves the Niro, but it's not ideal as it's front wheel drive and the variants with decent spec are expensive even with the subsidy so I'm unsure about the economic payback.
  • Replace my existing CX-5 with another one and suck up the $3k ute tax.
  • Downsize to a CX-30 and get the ute tax down to about $1.5k. This is probably my preferred option at this stage.

Whatever I do it looks like I'm going to end up with a substantial increase in TCO. 

 

I wonder if this will reduce sales of new cars and consequently increase values in the used market? That might increase the value of my trade-in, hence partially offsetting the ute tax. 


 
 
 

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evilengineer
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  #3070891 3-May-2023 16:18
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HarmLessSolutions:

 

Industry comment I heard today was that incoming BYD Dolphin (and possibly Seagull) will cause huge drops in new EV pricing to the extent that the 2nd hand Leaf imports will become unviable. A BYD Seagull at this sort of price will make the CCR a bit of a joke and even without it will allow the less monied to enjoy EV ownership. Sure it is still doubtful whether BYD can bring this into NZ but the way prices are moving on Chinese cars something similar will get here sooner or later.

 

 

Got to love the naming. Will it try and steal your chips? 😀

 

The price in that link seems pretty unrealistic with import costs, GST and dealer mark-ups etc, but if they can get it to market for Suzuki Swift money with the discount on top then that's looking pretty tempting as an around town run-about. 


Dingbatt
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  #3070895 3-May-2023 16:30
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If you need an AWD hybrid and don’t want to wait until the next millennium for a Toyota 😁, there is the Ford Escape FHEV. I test drove the PHEV, which is only FWD, and quite liked it. In the end went for the Model 3 because it was $6000 more after the relevant rebates and Ford’s lowball trade-in offer compared to Tesla’s was factored in.

 

Now that public charging is set at a rate equivalent to running a Corolla (80c/kWh), once RUCs are brought in for EVs next year, it will be more expensive to run an EV than a efficient FHEV, if you have no facility to charge at home or work.





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RunningMan
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  #3070929 3-May-2023 17:28
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Dingbatt:Now that public charging is set at a rate equivalent to running a Corolla (80c/kWh), once RUCs are brought in for EVs next year, it will be more expensive to run an EV than a efficient FHEV, if you have no facility to charge at home or work.

 

From the rough calcualtions I did, it's already more expensive, even without RUC.


Mehrts
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  #3070930 3-May-2023 17:30
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Of course the Model 3 I ordered in April is due to be "delivered June 14 to 30" now that the rebate is going to be adjusted. 🙃

I've sent a query to NZTA asking exactly at what point does the rebate change take effect. Is it based on application submission date, or date that they pay out? E.g. If I submit a rebate applicaton on June 30, do I get the full $8625 since I applied before 01 July? or is it $7015 since it'll be paid out after July 01?

 

I haven't been able to find any information regarding this, so I want to hear it directly from the horse's mouth. Now waiting for their response "within 15 business days".


HarmLessSolutions
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  #3070939 3-May-2023 17:57
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RunningMan:

 

Dingbatt:Now that public charging is set at a rate equivalent to running a Corolla (80c/kWh), once RUCs are brought in for EVs next year, it will be more expensive to run an EV than a efficient FHEV, if you have no facility to charge at home or work.

 

From the rough calcualtions I did, it's already more expensive, even without RUC.

 

Our Polestar2 is returning 18kWh/100km which at ) 80c/kWh is 14.4c/km. Add 7.6c/km (if that diesel rate carries through to EVs) that totals to 22c/km which is just below the petrol cost for an equivalent ICE (i.e. 2022 Volvo XC60 B6 rated for 8.7 L/100km using $3/litre which it was when I last visited a petrol station) 26c/km. The much lower maintenance costs for an EV of course add to that differential.

 

Incidentally most of our charging is PV supplied so the 11c/kWh (for now) export rate equates to ~2c/km for the most part.

 

Also Dingbatt's FHEV running cost estimate assumes that hybrids escape a potential distance based RUC charge which I think may be a bit optimistic.





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tdgeek
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  #3070953 3-May-2023 18:29
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@Scott3

 

Wonderful detailed post

 

 


SaltyNZ
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  #3070971 3-May-2023 19:00
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Batman:

 

maybe so it doesn't affect commercial vehicles like courier vans and trucks?

 

 

 

 

But it should. They do a lot more mileage.





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SaltyNZ
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  #3070973 3-May-2023 19:03
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alasta:

 

I have no ability to charge a car at home and only use the car for trips out of town so I'm struggling to figure out how someone in my position is supposed to react to the policy changes.

 

 

 

 

MoT are looking for feedback on their EV charging strategy. How to serve people who have no off-street parking, who live in multi-unit dwellings or otherwise don't have ready access to a charging point at home is one of their study issues.





iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


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