Speed limits too high on most roads, NZTA estimates

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#2255246 10-Jun-2019 13:22

ilovemusic:

another useless green minister continuing the attack on transport's softest target

how about spending some of that $1.4b on driver education ?

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/391246/speed-limits-too-high-on-most-roads-nzta-estimates

My dashcam records - daily - the fact speed limits are too high on many roads. Most people do drive to the conditions, but there is a definite group of people who don't....and they kill other people.

The number of actual deaths and injuries is dwarfed by the near-misses. I nearly had head-on collisions twice this week alone with people who obviously have very poor impulse control and don't realise life doesn't come with a reset button.

Ontario, in Canada, has set the speed limit on all two-lane divided highways to 90kph (like the stretch of SH2 between the bottom of the Bombay Hill and Mangatarata). That makes a lot more sense. It's a good speed....but not as fatal if things go wrong...and most of their roads are much straighter than ours.

The roads are used by everyone from 16 to 100yo.....and varying driving skills and some who are disabled. Anyone who wants to drive like a race car driver should book some time at Hampton Downs or similar and calm down the rest of the time.

Unless you pass a really slow vehicle close to the start of any trip you don't really save any time anyway. There is always a slow truck or campaer or farmer's tractor on the road.....or roadworks and a stop/go sign. This week on my way to Opotiki I was passed by a Red Holden at high speed on a double-yellow line (I was doing 108 incidcated / 100 on the GPS) .....and an hour later he was next to me at the lights in Tauranga. Pointless. Waste of time. Added risk for nothing but a person's inability to contain their ego.

Lower the speed limits on all two-lane, non-divded highways.....and then enforce the hell out of it. That's the only way the slow learners among us can be "educated".

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geoffwnz

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#2255270 10-Jun-2019 13:47

Linuxluver:

Lower the speed limits on all two-lane, non-divded highways.....and then enforce the hell out of it. That's the only way the slow learners among us can be "educated".

How about leave the speed limits alone and "enforce the hell out of" ALL the road rules.

Speed is not and never has been the problem (except in a small number of people who just don't care about the rules). It's just a soft target.

Driver training, driver training, driver training. Test and retest regularly.

Driving is not a right. It's a privilege that needs to be earned and maintained.

I am due to renew my license this year. And what do I have to do? Fill out a form, get my eyes tested on a flawed machine and pay money.
Do I know that the roundabout rules changed since I sat my license some 20ish years ago? Do they even care if I do or not? Who knows?

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#2255281 10-Jun-2019 14:03

Linuxluver:

The number of actual deaths and injuries is dwarfed by the near-misses. I nearly had head-on collisions twice this week alone with people who obviously have very poor impulse control and don't realise life doesn't come with a reset button.

Two thoughts about this. I agree regarding near-misses. I was on a straight stretch of state highway 50 in clear daylight with my headlights on when some moron decided to pull out from behind a tractor just as I was about to reach it. I don't know how he could not have seen me coming or thought he had time to overtake. I hit the brakes and was scanning the side of the road for the least destructive option when he finally pulled back in at the last possible moment. This is the closest I have ever come and it was not just a case of mistaken judgement. He must have been deaf, dumb, blind, drunk and stoned to have tried to pull something like that. Fortunately something brought him back to sanity just in time.

I do not agree that stricter speed limits with greater enforcement are a solution until there is a major shift of mentality on the part of enforcers and other authorities. Speed limits are unrealistic one-size-fits-all solutions, like someone with a hammer thinking all problems are nails. Enforcement is a farce when the enforcers look for places to hide on sections of highway that drivers are more likely to speed on because it is safe and easy to do so. A speed limit is a very crude tool. To even come close to being sensible, there would have to be speed limits every 100 meters on all roads. Clearly there are places where 100 kph, though legal, is not only unsafe, but physically impossible. Likewise there are long, clear, well-made stretches of road where 130 kph or even more is no less safe than 100. Speed limits exist for the convenience of enforcement officials because they give them easy to use tools for measuring one's compliance with the law, regardless of other factors.

What needs to change is not speed limits, but the mentality of drivers. Education is only part of this. Teaching people to be better dangerous drivers is probably preferable to keeping them hopelessly incompetent, but it doesn't address the real problem. There are specialised psychological tests that make it possible to actually measure qualities like attitude and maturity. These should be an integral part of any graduated qualification process for drivers. There should be retesting at regular intervals throughout life. There should be zero tolerance for mistakes and drivers who make them should be subjected to a process of re-education and re-licensing. A driving license should be an enormous privilege, hard to win, easy to lose. No exceptions.

Finally, enforcement authorities should be seen to be fair and reasonable in all regards. Get rid of arbitrary revenue-generating anal speed limits and quit trying to do things on the cheap. Don't fixate on the speed someone is going, which is the easy and cheap method, but instead invest in the resources to assess the quality of driving.

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lNomNoml

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#2255292 10-Jun-2019 14:14

Batman:
Bung: The offence isn't slowing you down, it's not pulling over to let you pass "as soon as is reasonably practicable".

That does not happen either. You can bet that 400m before passing Lane they will be driving at 110-120ks.

This happens almost all the time, the "I must be in front and no one else" mentality is too prominent here.

frankv

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#2255308 10-Jun-2019 14:36

Rikkitic:

What needs to change is not speed limits, but the mentality of drivers.

I think it's the mentality of not just the drivers, but also the authorities. As you said, speed limits are a convenient one-size-fits-all-badly way to impose some semblance of safe driving.

But, if you do a bit of thinking, the reasons people speed are (a) they want to be somewhere else, sooner, and (b) it feels "safe enough" for them. So, why not *allow* people to go faster, on roads that are actually safe enough? Roads aren't that safe? Well, build them! Make them suitable for the speeds that people actually want to drive at. It's not rocket science.

The authorities seem to have tunnel vision about telling people that 100kph is about right, if not too fast. It's a paternalistic, condescending attitude of "Trust us, we know best. Your wishes are irrelevant, and we'll decide for you" about setting and enforcing limits that other countries left behind years ago.

Technofreak

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#2255309 10-Jun-2019 14:36

Linuxluver:

My dashcam records - daily - the fact speed limits are too high on many roads.

I do a fair amount of open highway driving and my experience certainly doesn't match yours.

Linuxluver:

This week on my way to Opotiki I was passed by a Red Holden at high speed on a double-yellow line (I was doing 108 incidcated / 100 on the GPS) .....and an hour later he was next to me at the lights in Tauranga. Pointless. Waste of time. Added risk for nothing but a person's inability to contain their ego.

There is no excuse for passing on double yellow lines.

I will make one point. I drive on the open road with my cruise control set at 100 to 105 kph. I will pass a slower vehicle and sometime later will stop for fuel or a toilet stop and that vehicle may (or may not) catch me up before I'm on my way again. They would assume they had been keeping pace with me. To give an recent example, driving between Hamilton and Auckland the other day I passed a slower vehicle on the expressway. A while later I stopped and filled my car from almost empty (63 litre tank, range to empty 50 km) at Hampton Downs. That vehicle had just gone past the on ramp as I re-entered the expressway after filling my car.

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Linuxluver

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#2255316 10-Jun-2019 14:47

Linuxluver:

Lower the speed limits on all two-lane, non-divded highways.....and then enforce the hell out of it. That's the only way the slow learners among us can be "educated".

How about leave the speed limits alone and "enforce the hell out of" ALL the road rules.

That doesn't address the technical speed limit on a road like the one between Coromandel Town and Whitianga being 100kph.....when actually attempting to drive at the speed would be classed as suicide.

Speed is not and never has been the problem (except in a small number of people who just don't care about the rules). It's just a soft target.

Speed is a contributor to EVERY driving mishap, as Dr Kirsty Wild points out in this article about speed myths. "Four Speeding Myths Debunked"

Driver training, driver training, driver training. Test and retest regularly.

I recently did a full practical driving test in order to get a P Endorsement on my license. New drivers are expected to do the speed limit. A bit hard when al most no one else does. The first lesson they learn is it's OK to speed because "everyone does it". That needs to change. I totally agree sped limits should be enforced....even if that means speed governors mandatory in vehicles to prevent exceeding the speed limit.

Driving is not a right. It's a privilege that needs to be earned and maintained.

I am due to renew my license this year. And what do I have to do? Fill out a form, get my eyes tested on a flawed machine and pay money.
Do I know that the roundabout rules changed since I sat my license some 20ish years ago? Do they even care if I do or not? Who knows?

Good point. We agree on a lot. :-)

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HellToupee

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#2255412 10-Jun-2019 17:02

Linuxluver:
I recently did a full practical driving test in order to get a P Endorsement on my license. New drivers are expected to do the speed limit. A bit hard when al most no one else does. The first lesson they learn is it's OK to speed because "everyone does it". That needs to change. I totally agree sped limits should be enforced....even if that means speed governors mandatory in vehicles to prevent exceeding the speed limit.

Worse some even get angry when you do the speed limit, with my two vehicles a 1960s 1200 beetle with a top speed of about 100kmh and a Niu m1 electric moped limited to 50kmh often encounter people who urgently need to reach the next set of red lights.

Technofreak

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#2255560 10-Jun-2019 20:50

Linuxluver:

I totally agree sped limits should be enforced....even if that means speed governors mandatory in vehicles to prevent exceeding the speed limit.

I agree with you on some points, but totally disagree on speed governors. They are outright dangerous. You might not remember, but once upon a time rental cars had them.

The time exposed to danger when overtaking can be significantly increased with governors. There are many times when a moderate short term exceedance of the speed limit is the safest way to get past a slower vehicle. It may not be strictly legal but is certainly the safest option.

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MikeB4

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#2255592 10-Jun-2019 21:58

Slow down to improve the odds in avoiding disaster and reduce the mess if disaster happens. It seems logical and the smart thing to do.

floydbloke

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#2255698 11-Jun-2019 07:19

MikeB4:

Slow down to improve the odds in avoiding disaster ...

Not necessarily. How far do you take this, down to 90km/h, 70 km/h, 40km/h??

The slower people go the more frustrated other drivers will get, increasing (perhaps indirectly) the odds of a disaster because it's a catalyst for the frustrated ones to take risks.

Did Eric Clapton really think she looked wonderful...or was it after the 15th outfit she tried on and he just wanted to get to the party and get a drink?

tdgeek

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#2255730 11-Jun-2019 08:48

geoffwnz:

Linuxluver:

Lower the speed limits on all two-lane, non-divded highways.....and then enforce the hell out of it. That's the only way the slow learners among us can be "educated".

How about leave the speed limits alone and "enforce the hell out of" ALL the road rules.

Speed is not and never has been the problem (except in a small number of people who just don't care about the rules). It's just a soft target.

Driver training, driver training, driver training. Test and retest regularly.

Driving is not a right. It's a privilege that needs to be earned and maintained.

I am due to renew my license this year. And what do I have to do? Fill out a form, get my eyes tested on a flawed machine and pay money.
Do I know that the roundabout rules changed since I sat my license some 20ish years ago? Do they even care if I do or not? Who knows?

The point he made is that most drive fine, a few don't, these few are the cause. If you educate the ones that speed and take risks, nothing will change as they want to drive fast and take risks. A certificate in the glove box wont help these types. Adding a couple of zero's to the fines of repeat offenders will.

frankv

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#2255786 11-Jun-2019 09:49

tdgeek:

The point he made is that most drive fine, a few don't, these few are the cause.

Actually, I think it's a few that don't, at any given point in time. I think that who the "few" are varies from time to time. Most people drive well 99% of the time. Most drivers do something slightly stupid or unsafe 0.999% of the time. Most people do something *really* stupid or dangerous 0.0001% of the time. It's just human nature. That 1 in a million person may very well survive the experience with a shake of the head and perhaps an angry honk from other motorists, unless they meet a 1 in a 100 person.

MikeB4

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#2255788 11-Jun-2019 09:51

floydbloke:

MikeB4:

Slow down to improve the odds in avoiding disaster ...

Not necessarily. How far do you take this, down to 90km/h, 70 km/h, 40km/h??

The slower people go the more frustrated other drivers will get, increasing (perhaps indirectly) the odds of a disaster because it's a catalyst for the frustrated ones to take risks.

In my amateur opinion I feel 80kmh on most country roads, 110kmh on new expressways. Suburban roads 40kmh and city roads 30kmh. As someone that was driving during fuel crisis 80kmh times and some who has towed boats over much of NZ the travel time difference at the lower speed compared to 100kmh is not much. Many folks seem to think that lowering the rural speed limit to say 80kmh is going to ruin their lives, it wont but being seriously injured or killed in an accident will.

I am not saying that lowering the speed limits is a cure all but until the rest is taken care of, like road improvement, better driver education and driver maturity etc then reducing the speed limits would seem logical and prudent.

As for city and suburban driving a reduction in these areas is long overdue given the increasing population density and increasing use of alternative transport like bikes and scooters.

frankv

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#2255802 11-Jun-2019 10:01

MikeB4:

I am not saying that lowering the speed limits is a cure all but until the rest is taken care of, like road improvement, better driver education and driver maturity etc then reducing the speed limits would seem logical and prudent.

I think that so long as reducing speed limits is accepted, there will be no impetus for road improvement. The only headline I've heard out of the NZTA review of road safety has been that "speed limits are too high". (Maybe because that's all that the media choose to portray). It appears to actually be seen by NZTA as a permanent solution and cure all.

As for city and suburban driving a reduction in these areas is long overdue given the increasing population density and increasing use of alternative transport like bikes and scooters.

Is population density increasing in the cities? It appears to me that cities are spreading, so population density remains about the same. I think cycling has decreased over the last few decades, perhaps because of the increased size of cities. But yes, scootering is on the up. Maybe ebikes will see people returning to cycling?

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