EVSE (Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment) for Home Use

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81 posts

Master Geek

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#2876193 28-Feb-2022 12:13

Scott3:

Batman:

question - plugging my leaf 24kwh into the wall socket in this setup

leaf - OEM Audio cable - 30m 1.5mm2 extension - mitre10 RCD - wall socket

been doing that for half a year

is there any issue there?

cheers

It's bad practice.

Best practice is to use a fixed EVSE installed by an electrician as your main means of charging. ...

But of course many people, including myself have used a portable cable plugged to a wall outlet for an extended period. Works fine, but more area's of risk. (Domestic plug connection, cable between wall and brick has reduced protection, shared circuit etc).

Your config, does add even more risk:

Adding what sounds like two additional plug/socket pairs triples the odds of an plug/socket pairing issue.
30m of cord, plus the plug parings will add up to fairly substantial voltage drop. - An online calculator showed a 30m run of 1.5mm^2 cable results in a 3.454% / 7.92V voltage drop. Add this to the drop from the RCD, plug / socket pairings, OEM audio evse etc, and we could well see a fairly low voltage at the car, but I don't think they are super sensitive to low voltage.
30m of extension cord increases the odds of something bad happening to it. Stored in a coil (extra heat generation), passed under something thermally insulation (carpet, matt, pile of leaves etc), mechanical damage.
Risk of indoor rated components used outside.
The area around the EVSE would be my highest concern. Two plug connections (if it is a brick type), plus the RCD itself all in close proximity, generating heat...

I agree with Scott3's assessment. Using an extension lead on a mode-2 EVSE (aka IC-CPD, "charging cable", "granny charger") is bad practice, but you can mitigate the risks if you can't afford the expense & bother of getting a mode-3 charging station.

Here's what the manual supplied with my OEM Audio IC-CPD (a 6A/8A charger with a 10A AC plug, model 68A20B, OEM Shenqi Electronic https://evcharge.en.alibaba.com/ ) has to say in boldface about safety:

The plug on my OEM Audio - branded (Shenqi Electronic - manufactured) IC-CPD is a Nadway 56P310. This plug has no temperature sensor -- and it has no real need of one, because this IC-CPD is limited to 8A. The plug is rated IP66. If your IC-CPD also has a 10A plug with an orange IP66 twist-on cover, then you might consider engaging an electrician to install an outdoor 10A socket (such as an 56SO310 from Nadway or PDL) that's near enough to your vehicle that you don't have to use an extension lead.

There's another risk -- it occurs extremely rarely but it could be deadly, so it's important to know about when you're charging your EVs outdoors on a rainy day. Here's what SNZ has to say about this risk in SNZ PAS 6011 (published March 2021, available free-to-web at https://www.standards.govt.nz/shop/snz-pas-60112021/):

And... you're really not running a big risk with an 8A IC-CPD on an extension lead, so long as you monitor (at least occasionally) the temperature of the plugs & sockets. On a rainy day... even though my OEM Audio IC-CPD is rated IP-66, I'll have it tucked into a dry place on the ground underneath my vehicle, I'll avoid touching the chassis of my EV when the IC-CPD is plugged into it, I'll set up my charging circuit before applying mains power to it, and my last step in the setup will be to plug the IC-CPD into my EV; the first step in my tear-down will be to unplug the IC-CPD, then I'll turn off the mains power at the wall, and then I will dismantle my charging circuit (which may include an extension lead!).

gajan

287 posts

Ultimate Geek

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Spark NZ

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#2877871 2-Mar-2022 18:58

So after much research on EVSEs and various IP ratings, I feel I'm back to square one, and keen to know if anyone else has any thoughts. Planned location is outside, and in typical Wellington fashion exposed to rain, and wind (southerly and northerly) in an exposed place, so maximum water ingress protection is a must.

I'm keen on something with some smarts and networking ability, and power-wise single-phase with a new 6mm TPS run (so full 32A if desired...). What I've looked at;

Wallbox Pulsar Plus - IP54 - other things - it states it includes DC Leakage protection but website implies an external RCCB is still required (presumably Type B external)

EVLink Smart Wallbox - IP54 - I think external RCCB is required here.

EO EV Mini Pro Wallbox - IP54 - pretty sure includes the Type B RCCB

Does anyone have any-thoughts on these and real world experiences especially with how they standup to rain (+wind) ingress protection etc ?

(and no not getting a Tesla, but it is T2)

Thanks!

My comments and remarks are not necessarily of my employer.

Dingbatt

6756 posts

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Lifetime subscriber

#2877891 2-Mar-2022 20:20

gajan:

Does anyone have any-thoughts on these and real world experiences especially with how they standup to rain (+wind) ingress protection etc ?

Thanks!

Had you given any consideration to a tethered option rather than one with a type 2 socket? (Sorry don’t have access to the specs of the ones you listed - some may be tethered).

That way you only have to worry about the plug end of things for weather resistance.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

gajan

287 posts

Ultimate Geek

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Spark NZ

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#2877896 2-Mar-2022 20:35

Yes - definitely keener for a tethered style cabled (~5m) option with a T2 plug on the end. At least the EVLINK and Wallbox ones have that options for that. EO seems to only have socketed style options (but also appears to be the cheapest)...

My comments and remarks are not necessarily of my employer.

RunningMan

8961 posts

Uber Geek

#2877897 2-Mar-2022 20:37

Have you considered Evnex? https://www.evnex.com/home-charging

cthombor

81 posts

Master Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2877932 2-Mar-2022 22:43

gajan:

So after much research on EVSEs and various IP ratings, I feel I'm back to square one, and keen to know if anyone else has any thoughts. Planned location is outside, and in typical Wellington fashion exposed to rain, and wind (southerly and northerly) in an exposed place, so maximum water ingress protection is a must.

I'm keen on something with some smarts and networking ability, and power-wise single-phase with a new 6mm TPS run (so full 32A if desired...). What I've looked at;

Wallbox Pulsar Plus - IP54 - other things - it states it includes DC Leakage protection but website implies an external RCCB is still required (presumably Type B external)

EVLink Smart Wallbox - IP54 - I think external RCCB is required here.

EO EV Mini Pro Wallbox - IP54 - pretty sure includes the Type B RCCB

Does anyone have any-thoughts on these and real world experiences especially with how they standup to rain (+wind) ingress protection etc ?

(and no not getting a Tesla, but it is T2)

Thanks!

JuicePoint NZ is advertising an IP66 mode-3 EVSE that'll handle to 32A single-phase; but you'll have to protect it from the sun -- otherwise those big rubber grommets will fail. https://juicepoint.co.nz/knowledge-base/juicebox-32-full-specifications/

Another *possibility* would be to look for an IP66-rated mode-2 EVSE with a thermosensor on its IP67-rated 32A "red" CEE plug. You could stow that inside when you're not using it. Some even have a built-in RCD-B but you'll definitely want expert advice on that!

gajan

287 posts

Ultimate Geek

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Spark NZ

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#2878028 3-Mar-2022 08:15

Thanks for the pointers on the Juicepoint and the EVNEX have fired of some queries. A quick update on the EO EVSE - it does have a tethered option/variant so price-wise that is still leading at the moment... just whether IP54 is good enough is TBD...

My comments and remarks are not necessarily of my employer.

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Dingbatt

6756 posts

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#2878089 3-Mar-2022 08:51

If the environmentals are really that heinous (yes I concede it is Wellington), maybe consider putting the EVSE in some sort of protective cover/alcove?

Edit: Weatherproofing is something I hadn’t considered because my situation is inside a garage. But as more new builds aren’t even including a parking space it will become more important.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

cthombor

81 posts

Master Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2878487 3-Mar-2022 19:18

Dingbatt:

If the environmentals are really that heinous (yes I concede it is Wellington), maybe consider putting the EVSE in some sort of protective cover/alcove?

Edit: Weatherproofing is something I hadn’t considered because my situation is inside a garage. But as more new builds aren’t even including a parking space it will become more important.

Indeed. I think it's only Wellington City Council that has been paying any attention to the hopelessness (or dangerousness) of someone who owns an EV and doesn't have a safe & convenient place to slowcharge it at night. And the unattractiveness of an EV to any city dweller who isn't wealthy enough (or lucky enough) to have their own carport is *one* of the reasons the UK has cut back hugely on its purchase-price subsidies for EVs... pretty hard to justify a subsidy that benefits the already-well-to-do... and the stated plan of the politicians who cut back the EV-purchase subsidy is to increase the subsidisation of the public EV-charging infrastructure so that it can develop more quickly...

<rant>Auckland's "SuperCity" has its head firmly in the sand on taking any responsibility for improving EV-charging infrastructure ... spending more effort trying to fend off the efforts of Parliament to force Auckland Council to allow its property owners to build infill housing as-of-right in as many places as the far-away politicians can identify on their planning-maps for Auckland... nevermind the difficulties this unplanned infill will cause for infrastructure provision. Clearly: residential-street EV charging is pretty low on the list of required infrastructure -- sitting well below the importance of stormwater and sewer and freshwater and electrical and transport. In this context: residential-street EV charging is clearly in the "nice to have" category that'll never get funded. Well... such difficulties are to be expected in any city other than perhaps Wellington, given that in recent decades we either have a government that is firmly committed to centralised control of all of those wayward local body authorities and DHBs etc, but which doesn't dare to raise taxes enough to pay for the cost of what it is attempting to achieve through its regulation; or we have a government that is committed to cutting back on the regulatory incursions of the other party, and which will not only cut its own taxes and spends, it'll prevent local bodies from raising rates.</rant> I'll get off my soapbox now, sorry this isn't an appropriate place for political arguments. But really it is absurd the position we're in, in any medium-density or high-density area that doesn't have much in the way of public transport and which can't afford to ensure that "everyone" has an option to purchase an affordable EV as well as have a convenient place to charge it overnight ;-)

hobsonlea

281 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2878506 3-Mar-2022 20:31

cthombor:
SomeoneSomewhere: ... Sparkies can install whatever compliant socket for whatever purpose. However, if they are complying with the guidelines, then if they know that the socket is intended for EV charging then they need to use type B RCDs, only the sockets listed in the document and so on. This is not too dissimilar from other situations where what you're intended to use the socket for changes the rules. ...

As you have pointed out: the 2019 WorkSafe guidelines do not include the 15A 3112 plug as an option.

The 2021 SNZ PAS regulations do include the 15A 3112 plug as an option -- with the (I think rather obviously-appropriate) provisos that the IC-CPD be limited to 12A unless there's a temp-sensor on its plug in which case it can run at the full rated 15A. It's my understanding that the testing regime for certifying a 15A 3112 plug includes a thermal test, where a current of somewhat more than 15A (I don't recall offhand) is passed through the plug until its temperature stabilises below some threshold value (which I don't recall offhand) or until it overheats (in which case it isn't certified). Of course: wear and corrosion will degrade the thermal performance of a 15A 3112 plug, which is why the 12A limit is important for a safety margin.

I'd hope that any registered electrician is conversant with all of the information (notably including earthing, and the safety risk of an open or high-resistance neutral) that's in the 2021 SNZ PAS, but which is not mentioned in the 2019 WorkSafe guidelines.

The cautious electrician may well agree with you about (what you seem to believe to be) the inappropriateness of using a 15A 3112 plug to supply a continuous 12A load, or about the importance of *not* using a socket that's explicitly allowed in 2021 SNZ PAS because the socket wasn't explicitly allowed in the 2019 WorkSafe guidelines.

Any employer (I hope!) would take note of the deprecations in the WorkSafe guidelines regarding *any* mode-2 EVSE.

And... the cautious and well-informed homeowner would *never* rely solely on a thermosensor, in *either* a 15A or a 16A plug, to assure safety in a circuit that's drawing 15A for many hours. I'm a belt-and-suspenders sort of guy!

I’ve just got my Tesla m3, had a sparky install a 15a outlet in garage on the 20amp Rcd circuit.
When I plugged in first time I got 12a and it took 48hrs for Tesla to decide it would draw the full 15a.
Was the Tesla cable and device.. testing the circuit.. the above info was helpful.

cthombor

81 posts

Master Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2878511 3-Mar-2022 20:52

hobsonlea:
cthombor:

As you have pointed out: the 2019 WorkSafe guidelines do not include the 15A 3112 plug as an option...

I’ve just got my Tesla m3, had a sparky install a 15a outlet in garage on the 20amp Rcd circuit.
When I plugged in first time I got 12a and it took 48hrs for Tesla to decide it would draw the full 15a.
Was the Tesla cable and device.. testing the circuit.. the above info was helpful.

Hmm... *maybe* it was a voltage-swing on your mains. By regulation, mains supply in NZ is 230V +/- 6%. When the voltage is high, then a 15A draw might be more wattage than your Tesla has negotiated with your EVSE to supply -- so it'll drop back to some lower amperage level (which seems to be about 12A in your case). When the voltage is low, the EVSE might draw the full 15A allowed on its plug. I have *no* experience with Tesla's EVSEs, but I have observed steps in current drawn by (the much lower wattage) EVSE I use on my 24 kWh Leaf... anyway... whether it's drawing about 12A at about 240V or about 15A at about 230V, your EVSE will be charging your Tesla at about 2900 Watts. (The EVSE will get a bit warm I should imagine... so maybe "only" about 2875 Watts? That's still a hefty charging rate! To charge your Tesla any faster, you'd need an EVSE that can handle a three-phase 15A supply, or a 32A single-phase supply, or (perhaps) a Tesla's AC-charging circuit can accept 12 kW from a 32A 400V AC 3-phase EVSE?!? My trusty-old Leaf can only accept 3 kW on an AC charge, but it hardly matters because it has only 24 kWh of battery -- so it's at most an 8-hour charge at that 3 kW rate. Teslas have much larger batteries and much heftier AC-DC converters...)

Decal

222 posts

Master Geek

ID Verified

#2878534 3-Mar-2022 22:15

With the Tesla UMC it doesnt come with the latest firmware allowing full current draw from factory. It takes a few hours plugged into the car at 100% to update.

The UMC can handle up to 32amps on a single phase so you can get 7kw :) on the mobile charger

Decal

222 posts

Master Geek

ID Verified

#2878535 3-Mar-2022 22:18

Hmm... *maybe* it was a voltage-swing on your mains. By regulation, mains supply in NZ is 230V +/- 6%. When the voltage is high, then a 15A draw might be more wattage than your Tesla has negotiated with your EVSE to supply -- so it'll drop back to some lower amperage level (which seems to be about 12A in your case). When the voltage is low, the EVSE might draw the full 15A allowed on its plug. I have *no* experience with Tesla's EVSEs, but I have observed steps in current drawn by (the much lower wattage) EVSE I use on my 24 kWh Leaf... anyway... whether it's drawing about 12A at about 240V or about 15A at about 230V, your EVSE will be charging your Tesla at about 2900 Watts. (The EVSE will get a bit warm I should imagine... so maybe "only" about 2875 Watts? That's still a hefty charging rate! To charge your Tesla any faster, you'd need an EVSE that can handle a three-phase 15A supply, or a 32A single-phase supply, or (perhaps) a Tesla's AC-charging circuit can accept 12 kW from a 32A 400V AC 3-phase EVSE?!? My trusty-old Leaf can only accept 3 kW on an AC charge, but it hardly matters because it has only 24 kWh of battery -- so it's at most an 8-hour charge at that 3 kW rate. Teslas have much larger batteries and much heftier AC-DC converters...)

The Telsa Gen 3 wall connector can take anything up to 32amp 3 phase at 22kw. Ours is setup at 32amp single phase for 7kw.

The onboard charger on the M3 is only good for 11kw

SaltyNZ

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2degrees

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#2878557 4-Mar-2022 06:41

I've had Zippy for two days now. I'm using the 16A caravan plug with the mobile adapter and it went straight to 16A and stayed there the whole time. The Leaf only ever pulled 14.5A but then again I believe the onboard inverter is only 3.3kW anyway so that was probably the limit that the car could accept.

On a related note, it's definitely looking good for 350km+ on a single charge just driving it as a car, as it were, rather than something I have to constantly nurse to get the maximum possible range out of. Without doubt the best car I've ever owned in my life.

iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

cthombor

81 posts

Master Geek

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#2879128 4-Mar-2022 15:46

SaltyNZ:

I've had Zippy for two days now. I'm using the 16A caravan plug with the mobile adapter and it went straight to 16A and stayed there the whole time. The Leaf only ever pulled 14.5A but then again I believe the onboard inverter is only 3.3kW anyway so that was probably the limit that the car could accept.

On a related note, it's definitely looking good for 350km+ on a single charge just driving it as a car, as it were, rather than something I have to constantly nurse to get the maximum possible range out of. Without doubt the best car I've ever owned in my life.

I have never seen my Leaf charge faster than 3.1 kW -- as reported by LeafSpy. But... the AC/DC charger on an old Leaf is rated for 3.6 kVA; and one blogger in the US has reported a 3.414 kW charging session (measured by "recording amperage at the cell interconnect level using a high-accuracy kelvin-connected current shunt, so the losses are a sum of all EVSE/Charger/Leaf systems. Charger input power was similarly recorded using lab-grade calibrated true RMS equipment, not a Kill-A-Watt" https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=8583 )... so... the top-speed of a Leaf charging session will depend on your EVSE, its AC supply, and how you're measuring the wattage... but it'll be about 3 kW.

14.5A * 230V = 3.335 kW. The lines voltage is regulated to +/- 6%; so your 14.5A charging session might have been as low as 3.1 kW or as high as 3.5 kW... and the AC-charging circuitry in the Leaf dissipates (very roughly!) about 300W as heat... so at a rough estimate, your Leaf's battery was receiving 2.8 kW to 3.2 kW on that session.

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