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Topic # 205851 29-Nov-2016 18:52
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Are all hatchbacks going to be costly due to this DSG style torque converter, do all 2005 onwards hatchbacks use this style Auto?

 

Its actually harder to find a manual now than an auto funny enough.


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  Reply # 1679737 29-Nov-2016 19:26
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DSG is not a torque convertor - it is an entire transmission that uses two automated clutches and forgoes the torque convertor. You will generally find them in most German cars, and some Renaults and Hyundais. Japanese manufacturers do not use dual clutch transmissions as they favour CVT and conventional torque convertor automatics. 


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  Reply # 1679745 29-Nov-2016 19:43
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DSG refers to Direct-Shift Gearbox. Some modern european cars have these, but they are relatively rare in the fleet as a whole.

 

Best to avoid in an older car when reliability is the key concern. They have automated manual clutches in them, so like a manual car, shouldn't be driven at a speed lower than "clutch fully engaged in first speed" of course a lot of drivers aren't aware of this, and get the cars to crawl slowly up motorway on-ramps (as is normal in a torque-converter auto car), with the clutch slipping.

 

Conventional auto gearboxes are likely to be best (Auto) bet for reliability.

CVT's are getting pretty good for reliability now, but do rely on friction, making correct maintenance & fluids more important.


 
 
 
 




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  Reply # 1679760 29-Nov-2016 20:16
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Scott3:

 

Conventional auto gearboxes are likely to be best (Auto) bet for reliability.

CVT's are getting pretty good for reliability now, but do rely on friction, making correct maintenance & fluids more important.

 

 

 

 

Cool how do you tell the difference between CVT and old school?

 

Someone said DSG boxes are a 6 speed and the Golf normal is a standard auto.


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  Reply # 1679782 29-Nov-2016 20:35
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There have been lots of issues with the Focus and the Powershift dual clutch gearbox. Ford are replacing them even if cars are out of warranty.

 

 


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  Reply # 1679790 29-Nov-2016 20:45
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TeaLeaf:

 

Scott3:

 

Conventional auto gearboxes are likely to be best (Auto) bet for reliability.

CVT's are getting pretty good for reliability now, but do rely on friction, making correct maintenance & fluids more important.

 

 

 

 

Cool how do you tell the difference between CVT and old school?

 

Someone said DSG boxes are a 6 speed and the Golf normal is a standard auto.

 

 

Our non DSG Audi A3 is a 6 speed. Doesn't seem to be related to the number of gears. Best bet is to Google a particular model to see if it's DSG/CVT/Normal Auto


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  Reply # 1679794 29-Nov-2016 20:51
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Scott3: ... shouldn't be driven at a speed lower than "clutch fully engaged in first speed" of course a lot of drivers aren't aware of this, and get the cars to crawl slowly up motorway on-ramps (as is normal in a torque-converter auto car), with the clutch slipping. ...
How does that (clutch not fully engaged/slipping) happen? Is the DSG operation not properly automated to allow for creeping? How come the clutch would not be fully engaged once the vehicle was moving?




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  Reply # 1679817 29-Nov-2016 21:17
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So a DSG is similar to a Triptronic, ie + - shifting whilst in drive? im borrowing my mates mitsubishi and it has that kind of auto, i dont use it, I think its a silly concept, buy a manual. i was happy with 1, 2, D gearboxes, the problem is when people only use Drive IMO.




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  Reply # 1679819 29-Nov-2016 21:19
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JoshWright:

 

Our non DSG Audi A3 is a 6 speed. Doesn't seem to be related to the number of gears. Best bet is to Google a particular model to see if it's DSG/CVT/Normal Auto

 

 

I thought that was DSG !

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-shift_gearbox

 

"Like the original six-speed DSG, it features a concentric dual wet multi-plate"

 

Keeping in mind an Audi is just a VW in different clothes (generally speaking, clearly some models use unique parts like the actual engines in the S series).

 

The should be serviced every 40000 miles. And I think thats part of the problem with import reliability, especially imports well over this mark, there is no garuntee its been serviced.




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  Reply # 1679827 29-Nov-2016 21:30
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Look at the VW/Audi DSG Facebook page, not good,I dont wanna post the bad stuff on here but its tragedies even.


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  Reply # 1679843 29-Nov-2016 21:55
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TeaLeaf:

 

JoshWright:

 

Our non DSG Audi A3 is a 6 speed. Doesn't seem to be related to the number of gears. Best bet is to Google a particular model to see if it's DSG/CVT/Normal Auto

 

 

I thought that was DSG !

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-shift_gearbox

 

"Like the original six-speed DSG, it features a concentric dual wet multi-plate"

 

Keeping in mind an Audi is just a VW in different clothes (generally speaking, clearly some models use unique parts like the actual engines in the S series).

 

The should be serviced every 40000 miles. And I think thats part of the problem with import reliability, especially imports well over this mark, there is no garuntee its been serviced.

 

 

The same model A3 (8P) can be had with or without a DSG. Ours is without.




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  Reply # 1679858 29-Nov-2016 22:22
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/advice/which-sort-of-automatic-gearbox-is-best/




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  Reply # 1679859 29-Nov-2016 22:24
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JoshWright:

 

The same model A3 (8P) can be had with or without a DSG. Ours is without.

 

 

So yours you cant manually change up and down, ie push to the side to use + and - to go up and down etc?

 

Its so damn hard to tell on trademe which models are DSG, CVT or any of the newer Autos or not.

 

I dont think they are a problem if they are serviced, which is not cheap, which is what I think causes the problem which creates a problem 6x the cost of the service.

 

Even a normal auto needs servicing, people just think they last forever. But generally ive found with strong ones like In my old Outback and my Landcruiser they tend to need less attention as long as the fluid levels are ok and not over filled which is even worse.


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  Reply # 1679873 30-Nov-2016 00:09
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lapimate:

 

Scott3: ... shouldn't be driven at a speed lower than "clutch fully engaged in first speed" of course a lot of drivers aren't aware of this, and get the cars to crawl slowly up motorway on-ramps (as is normal in a torque-converter auto car), with the clutch slipping. ...
How does that (clutch not fully engaged/slipping) happen? Is the DSG operation not properly automated to allow for creeping? How come the clutch would not be fully engaged once the vehicle was moving?

 

 

When you learn to drive a manual car, you get taught not slip the clutch (i.e. drive at a speed between 0 and 4kmph). Exactly the same in DSG (Except people think they can because it looks like an auto). The car cannot creep at say 2kmph would slipping its clutch. The car will try really hard to discourage you from driving at this speed (the car will either stop or surge forward), but with persistent effort the driver can keep the car moving at 2kmph speed of on ramp traffic... Its mostly the dry clutch variants that have issues, the oil immersed clutches are cooled pretty well.

 

 

 

TeaLeaf:

 

Cool how do you tell the difference between CVT and old school?

 

Someone said DSG boxes are a 6 speed and the Golf normal is a standard auto.

 

 

CVT stands for Continuous Variable transmission, there are infinite ratios available, as such the noise & shift shock of an engine speed rising and falling will be missing as it works it's way up through the gears.

 

Generally if you floor a CVT car the revs will "flare" up quickly until reaching the RPM of peak power. then the engine RPM (and note) will stay the same while the vehicle speed continues to increase.

Driving enthusiasts often don't like this behaviour (the flaring sound & lack of shift shock), but it enable maximum power to be extracted from the engine.

Most CVT's offer some kind of tiptronic mode where the driver can select from 1 of an arbitrary number of transmission ratios.


Via an online advertisement, each type of car normally only has a single auto transmission type offered per engine & year. Normally some google searching can turn up what type of transmission is offered.

 

 

 

TeaLeaf:

 

So a DSG is similar to a Triptronic, ie + - shifting whilst in drive? im borrowing my mates mitsubishi and it has that kind of auto, i dont use it, I think its a silly concept, buy a manual. i was happy with 1, 2, D gearboxes, the problem is when people only use Drive IMO.

 

 

The term Tiptronic is used to represent driver selectable gears (or arbitrary ratios in the case of CVT) within an automatic transmission. this is done either with steering wheel paddles or pulling the gear lever to the right, then up/down.  Most modern car's seem to have this. I think the car does a better job of choosing gears than me so normally just leave it in auto. Just like your 1-2-D auto, tiptronic can be used for engine braking down steep hills. (many transmission will now do this automatically too though)

Other than descending steep, long hills (with a risk of break overheating), I just use drive in my car.

 

The reason for DSG & CVT transmissions is driven by consumer and regulator desire for lower fuel consumption. Same reason that transmission are getting more and more gears.

 

 

 

TeaLeaf:

 

 

 

Its so damn hard to tell on trademe which models are DSG, CVT or any of the newer Autos or not.

 

 

Recent euro hatchbacks are mostly DSG (CVT is rare in euro cars)

Recent Japanese hatchbacks are mostly CVT (DSG is rare in Japanese cars)

As you get older there is an increasing number of conventional auto cats.



 

For the most reliable hatchback gearbox on the market you can't look past the electric cars (Nissan Leaf / Renault Zoe / BMW i3)

These three cars use a single speed, fixed ratio, direct drive gearbox. Motor speed is directly proportional to wheel speed, if the wheels stop, the motor stops too, and for reverse, the motor is simply spun backwards. No clutches to worry about.


 

 




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  Reply # 1679973 30-Nov-2016 09:54
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Well that seems to explain a lot.

 

So I would say slow driving in D and not servicing your DSG would be the cause of the problems with the DSG?

 

Now how do you find one thats ok? Haha. The VTNZ dont check that in their 150 point check do they? An auto specialist would be better?

And If I buy from a dealer Im covered by CGA.

 

Interestingly the corolla GLX 1.8 Auto NZ new looks like a conventional old school auto all the way to 2009 (thats the newest model Ive looked at


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  Reply # 1680285 30-Nov-2016 20:05
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sbiddle:

 

There have been lots of issues with the Focus and the Powershift dual clutch gearbox. Ford are replacing them even if cars are out of warranty.

 

 

 

Ford have actually gone back to torque convertors in the latest Focus because of this issue. I think the Mazda Skyactiv transmissions engage the lockup clutch whenever possible even at low speeds in order to improve efficiency, and I would imagine that Ford have probably implemented a similar design considering that their fuel consumption figures are pretty good.

 

Dual clutch is a great idea in principle, but it is just too mechanically complex. 


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