Now I know why at peak times two buses turn up, the first full and the second empty

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lchiu7

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Topic # 242876 18-Nov-2018 14:50

No driver has ever told me as I try to get on a full bus there's one behind coming and who can believe the electronic signage anyway.

This never happened before the bus operator change perhaps because they used larger buses and the routes were better planned.

For me the Khandallah bus used to end at Khandallah with the occasional one going to Broadmeadows. Now my route all goes go J'Ville which adds extra passengers with smaller buses. No wonder why they are full.

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Reply # 2128925 18-Nov-2018 15:35

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Seems completely and utterly pointless. If you're going to send two buses one after the other why not use the extra buses to run extra services between other scheduled services?

All that happens is bunching with that new plan.

robjg63

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Reply # 2128927 18-Nov-2018 15:54

sbiddle:

Seems completely and utterly pointless. If you're going to send two buses one after the other why not use the extra buses to run extra services between other scheduled services?

All that happens is bunching with that new plan.

Yes - Because everyone knows that buses run on perfect timetables - absolutely down to the scheduled minute.

They never ever get held up in peak time traffic - ever.

Yes - I am being horribly sarcastic here and assume you don't use buses

Come on - think about it....

Bus due at 8.00am. Say they come every 10 minutes on peak routes.

Bus gets stuck in traffic because an idiot parked in a bus lane and wandered off.

The growing crowd at the stop (its now 8.09am BTW and the bus already had a lot of people on it before it got stuck) is now too large to all fit on the 8.00am bus.

Fortunately the transport supplier realised that hold ups happen especially at peak times and there is space for everyone on the next bus which is right behind.

In Auckland running the larger double-deckers has meant not quite so many 'extra' buses are required - but as the bus service improves then more people use it - which means... more fill in buses.

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Hammerer

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Reply # 2128930 18-Nov-2018 16:23

I don't get your point as a counter argument to sbiddle's statement as you appear to have totally missed his point about the clumping/bunching or buses. Nor do I understand why it required any sarcasm at all even if he was totally disconnected from reality, which he isn't.

You seem to be unaware that more than one bus arriving at the same time is a continuing problem that bus companies try hard to avoid:

https://metro.co.uk/2018/07/02/scientists-might-found-way-stop-three-buses-arriving-7675747/

https://phys.org/news/2018-06-math-bus-route-unreliable.html

https://jasmcole.com/2015/03/02/two-come-along-at-once/ for the mathematically inclined

Yes, buses get delayed. But, assuming that bus travellers don't change to another form of transport during the delay, the route will continue to have the same capacity and the same demand. So a random delay should not affect the number of fill-in buses which would be sent out based on known demand peaks. Also, in a delay, additional fill-in buses will not get there any faster.

I can see the reasoning behind changing the schedule for a transient shift in demand. But if that change in demand is more permanent then it does make sense to change the schedule to include additional pick-up times. Changing the timetable to convert every in-fill basis to a scheduled service has the added benefit of advertising the importance of the route, reducing the average wait time for travellers, and potentially reducing bunching/clumping of buses.

alasta

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Reply # 2128943 18-Nov-2018 16:33

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My understanding is that NZ Bus are getting double deckers delivered in January and, in the interim, single decker buses are being double dispatched in order to provide sufficient capacity to the timetable that would otherwise be serviced by double deckers.

robjg63

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Reply # 2128946 18-Nov-2018 16:45

OK - maybe I should not have replied quite like that - apologies.

But I have heard that type of response many times from non public transport users (Mike Hosking's neverending rants for example).

I do use buses quite often and it certainly annoys commuters who are waiting when several buses in a row turn up (or go past) 100% full.

Essentially, Wellington Transport have admitted they dont have enough capacity on their buses at peak times and that they have to have additional buses to handle the load.

So for example if every 10 minutes at peak time they need to move 55 people on a main route and a standard bus can hold a maximum of 40 people, then they will need additional capacity or to increase the frequency. So for example 2 buses for every scheduled time or larger buses.

The double decker buses have helped this situation in Auckland significantly.

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lchiu7

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Reply # 2128948 18-Nov-2018 16:53

alasta:
My understanding is that NZ Bus are getting double deckers delivered in January and, in the interim, single decker buses are being double dispatched in order to provide sufficient capacity to the timetable that would otherwise be serviced by double deckers.

I can't see a double decker going up Onslow Rd and the other narrow roads in Khandallah

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alasta

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Reply # 2128952 18-Nov-2018 17:04

lchiu7:
alasta:

My understanding is that NZ Bus are getting double deckers delivered in January and, in the interim, single decker buses are being double dispatched in order to provide sufficient capacity to the timetable that would otherwise be serviced by double deckers.

I can't see a double decker going up Onslow Rd and the other narrow roads in Khandallah

Double deckers manage to get through Hornsey Road and View Road to service the #23 route, so it appears to be possible as long as there are no overhanging tree branches, etc.

However if you are using the #22 route then you're correct in thinking that won't get double deckers because that route passes through the Karori and Northland tunnels.

sbiddle

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Reply # 2128965 18-Nov-2018 17:30

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robjg63:

sbiddle:

Seems completely and utterly pointless. If you're going to send two buses one after the other why not use the extra buses to run extra services between other scheduled services?

All that happens is bunching with that new plan.

Yes - Because everyone knows that buses run on perfect timetables - absolutely down to the scheduled minute.

They never ever get held up in peak time traffic - ever.

Yes - I am being horribly sarcastic here and assume you don't use buses

Come on - think about it....

Bus due at 8.00am. Say they come every 10 minutes on peak routes.

Bus gets stuck in traffic because an idiot parked in a bus lane and wandered off.

The growing crowd at the stop (its now 8.09am BTW and the bus already had a lot of people on it before it got stuck) is now too large to all fit on the 8.00am bus.

Fortunately the transport supplier realised that hold ups happen especially at peak times and there is space for everyone on the next bus which is right behind.

In Auckland running the larger double-deckers has meant not quite so many 'extra' buses are required - but as the bus service improves then more people use it - which means... more fill in buses.

You're talking about bunching of buses and timetable delays (which Alasta has explained above). This is very different to one of Wellington's major issues which is route capacity as a result of the route changes.

Running a bus directly behind another is a dumb way of trying to increase capacity, and for many very obvious reasons that probably don't need 15 mins of explaining will make actually timetable schedules worse. To increase route capacity you need bigger buses (coming) and as a temporary measure need to increase route frequency which helps spread capacity.

The fact GWRC simply think running a 2nd bus behind will fix a problem is the exact same lack of logic that got them in this situation in the first place.

blackjack17

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Reply # 2128969 18-Nov-2018 17:51

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I think what everyone is trying to say (didn't see it if it has been stated), it is better to run a bus every 7.5 minutes than two buses every 15 minutes

lchiu7

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Reply # 2128985 18-Nov-2018 18:59

sbiddle:

You're talking about bunching of buses and timetable delays (which Alasta has explained above). This is very different to one of Wellington's major issues which is route capacity as a result of the route changes.

That was the point I was making. Prior to the change I could catch a 44 to Khandallah or a 46 which went to Broadmeadows. Now the bus is a 24 and it terminates in Johnsonville. It has picked up all the passengers who used to go to Johnsonville on a different route and with the smaller buses, they are more crowded

sbiddle:

Running a bus directly behind another is a dumb way of trying to increase capacity, and for many very obvious reasons that probably don't need 15 mins of explaining will make actually timetable schedules worse. To increase route capacity you need bigger buses (coming) and as a temporary measure need to increase route frequency which helps spread capacity.

The fact GWRC simply think running a 2nd bus behind will fix a problem is the exact same lack of logic that got them in this situation in the first place.

The only time running another bus behind the first is if they are articulated and connected :-)

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Scotdownunder

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Reply # 2128986 18-Nov-2018 19:01

True in principle but queing theory tells you that unless the demand is perfectly smooth, the first bus gets delayed loading more passengers while the second bus catches up and has to load fewer passengers which results in bunching. The classic no buses then two come along together scenario.

For my pennyworth, the root of the problem is pushing every bus down the same CBD route leading to four or five buses nose to tail at each stop. Send the Brooklyn buses down Featherstone street and Victoria as well as those going down Taranaki St. Bring the latter back via Jervois Quay.

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Reply # 2128998 18-Nov-2018 20:15

lchiu7:
alasta:

My understanding is that NZ Bus are getting double deckers delivered in January and, in the interim, single decker buses are being double dispatched in order to provide sufficient capacity to the timetable that would otherwise be serviced by double deckers.

I can't see a double decker going up Onslow Rd and the other narrow roads in Khandallah

NZ Bus don't run the Khandallah routes anyway so that's a moot point

Despite all the problems with the system, it's been good for Broadmeadows having a regular bus service to and from town. Before it was only a small number of buses in the morning to town, then nothing till the afternoon coming from town.

sbiddle

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Reply # 2128999 18-Nov-2018 20:15

Scotdownunder: True in principle but queing theory tells you that unless the demand is perfectly smooth, the first bus gets delayed loading more passengers while the second bus catches up and has to load fewer passengers which results in bunching. The classic no buses then two come along together scenario.

And that's part of the reason why running two on purpose makes no sense. Unless the driver in front purposely skips stops to let the bus behind pick up passengers then there is no benefit - and that's unlikely to happen because it'll simply result in mass complains from people who say the bus went past and never stopped.

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Reply # 2129047 18-Nov-2018 20:47

Seems inefficient to run the overflow bus around the complete route.

Why not just delay sending the overflow bus out and time/sequence it to only drive halfway out and collect the last third or half of the route just in front of original bus. Maybe the full bus will pass the overflow bus as it makes its stops. I guess the bus patrons would soon get the idea.

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Reply # 2129118 19-Nov-2018 08:47

lchiu7:

...No driver has ever told me as I try to get on a full bus there's one behind coming and who can believe the electronic signage anyway....

Seems pointless for a bus driver to stop and tell you not to get on - just drive on by. It seems that the two bus drivers need to be in better communication - when one bus gets full, the 2nd one should overtake and become the leader - problem solved.

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