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#265473 23-Jan-2020 10:50
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"Norway horrified as new rates make EV charging prices higher than petrol"

 

https://thedriven.io/2020/01/20/norway-horrified-as-new-rates-make-ev-charging-prices-higher-than-petrol/

 

I genuinely don't know enough about the market there to know if this is genuine, or a short term pricing mistake, or what we're all going to see eventually... Thoughts? It looks like it's one provider, but there seems to be real concern this is the way forward.

 

Cheers - N





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Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


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145 posts

Master Geek


  #2405187 23-Jan-2020 10:56
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0.79EUR/kwH is $1.33NZD/kwH. That is, over 5x the domestic rate in NZ! So I think it's fair to say that this is one provider being particularly unreasonable, and that if you charge at home, you're still going to be way cheaper than dirty petrol.


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Master Geek


  #2405197 23-Jan-2020 11:47
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If prices get that high here solar is going to look a whole lot more attractive. Chargenet in NZ charge 25c / KWH and 25c / min which for a 24 KWH leaf is close to twice the price of charging at home and is somewhere near $10 per 100km. Still pretty cheap but add RUC charges to it next year and it's already creeping up towards the price of petrol here for a similar sized car.


 
 
 
 


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Uber Geek


  #2405210 23-Jan-2020 11:54
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Charging outside of home is a rarity for most. I think these guys are also using much larger chargers than our typical 50kw units.





Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated 

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Ultimate Geek


  #2405212 23-Jan-2020 11:56
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Call me a conspiracy theorist but...is it that surprising when the network is setup by some of the biggest makers of ICE vehicles?

 

Tesla's Supercharger rates is 40% cheaper than the new Ionity rates. These big manufactures really aren't helping make their options look more attractive than a Tesla.


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Uber Geek


  #2405215 23-Jan-2020 11:57
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"IONITY announced a kilowatt hour based pricing structure with effect from January 31st. Connected Mobility Service Providers (MSP) such as Audi e-tron Charging Service, Mercedes.Me.Charge, BMW ChargeNow, Porsche Charging Service and Volkswagen WeCharge offer attractive and bespoke packages for the use of IONITY’s European High Power Charging network. IONITY is also open to other MSP’s wishing to offer this network to their clients.

 

Customers who do not have a contract with an MSP will be able to charge their electric vehicles at all sites in IONITY’s network using a price-per-kilowatt-hour (kWh) format, at €0.79ct—per kWh (gross price in country-specific currency)"





Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated 

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Uber Geek

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  #2405218 23-Jan-2020 12:02
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Talkiet:

 

"Norway horrified as new rates make EV charging prices higher than petrol"

 

https://thedriven.io/2020/01/20/norway-horrified-as-new-rates-make-ev-charging-prices-higher-than-petrol/

 

I genuinely don't know enough about the market there to know if this is genuine, or a short term pricing mistake, or what we're all going to see eventually... Thoughts? It looks like it's one provider, but there seems to be real concern this is the way forward.

 

Cheers - N

 

 

Noting @jarledb is from Norway, he may be able to add some knowledge/context?


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Wannabe Geek

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  #2405220 23-Jan-2020 12:11
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It does sound like the price has gone up. 

 

Crichton from Red Dwarf, sometimes called Robert Llewellyn from Fully Charged talks about it at 13:15 into this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij7o5zIjVbc

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  #2405230 23-Jan-2020 12:27
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Surely this is inevitable? Why would electricity companies not charge for this especially once the vehicle dependency switches from oil?

 

 

 

Most electricity companies operating in a regulated environment are usually only regulated for domestic supply....






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Uber Geek


  #2405232 23-Jan-2020 12:37
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Dugimodo:

 

Still pretty cheap but add RUC charges to it next year and it's already creeping up towards the price of petrol here for a similar sized car.

 

 

The RUC model needs to change. It's too expensive per km compared to modern petrol vehicles. Add the additional cost and nobody in their right mind would buy an electric car.

 

I heard on the radio some company in Christchurch is going to start delivering fuel to people at home. An intense dislike of go to the petrol station is the main reason I want to go electric. If someone else will take care of the bit I don't like, I'm happy to remain using fossil fuels. I might even bring my mid-life crisis forward a bit and buy that sports car sooner... Nissan doesn't look to be bringing out an electric Z any time zoon.


703 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2405233 23-Jan-2020 12:47
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Sound like the headline is a bit deceptive. As it quotes the casual rate. Sounds like you can subscribe, dropping that charge to roughly half.

That said, (unsubsidised) fast charging is always going to cost more than charging at home. A 50kW fast charger costs about $50,000 in capital, and ongoing monthly lines charges are significant... those costs have to be clawed back to make the charger commercially viable.

In NZ most of the charge.net 50kW fast chargers are 25c/kWh+25c/min. Some are 50c/kWh. Tesla superchargers are about 43c/key. Most lines companies offering free fast chargers have announced that they will charge for them in the future. As a comparison my marginal cost of power at home is about 16.5c/kWh.

Typically something like 95% of ev charging happens at home or work so the cost of public fast charges isn't a big deal to most owners (within reason).

Also a lot of public slow chargers (malls etc) are free.

177 posts

Master Geek


  #2405234 23-Jan-2020 12:48
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SirHumphreyAppleby:

The RUC model needs to change. It's too expensive per km compared to modern petrol vehicles. Add the additional cost and nobody in their right mind would buy an electric car.



I’ve been driving diesel cars for years and paying for RUC for a car less than 2T. There have been many reviews of the RUC scheme for light vehicles and each time a rate for cars less than 2T has been proposed, NZTA or LTSA in the past have said that the revenue generated by adding a new weight band would not outweigh the cost of the new band. I’ve been waiting for a change for 13 years!

Diesel cars less than 2T have been getting smaller in numbers at the same pace as EV numbers have increased. So I really doubt there will be any change in what the RUC is. As EV’s increase in number and petrol vehicles also decrease, there will become even less incentive to change as modern petrol vehicles are paying less in road taxes than diesels are now with RUC. Have you ever heard of a government organisation say “No, we don’t really need that extra money, thank you”?

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Ultimate Geek

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  #2405243 23-Jan-2020 13:03
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Geektastic:

 

Surely this is inevitable? Why would electricity companies not charge for this especially once the vehicle dependency switches from oil?
Most electricity companies operating in a regulated environment are usually only regulated for domestic supply....

 

 

From the OP's link: "Ionity, a joint venture between BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Ford and Volkswagen including Audi and Porsche"

 

  • Ionity is not an electricity company, it's an EV-charger network company
  • They seem to have set a single EU-wide price, which apparently is way out of whack in Norway: it may not be so in other EU countries.
  • As noted above, Ionity is owned by a consortium of vehicle manufacturers whose vastly predominant market at the moment is ICE vehicles: they may not be significantly incentivised to make EVs more sttractive [cough]

703 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2405246 23-Jan-2020 13:10
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Regarding RUC's this is getting a little off topic, but an change to ruc policy has been informally signaled by government ministers.

Main issue with current policy is that a nissan leaf will end up paying double to tripple the road tax of a prius. Really the incentive should be the other way around (or netural)

258 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2405247 23-Jan-2020 13:12
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ionity is basically jacking the price for cars not in their club - this at the moment means teslas (the others possible charge at 70kw ish so dont need ionity)



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  #2405288 23-Jan-2020 14:35
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There has been some grumbles in the EV groups in Norway regarding the price change from ionity, but there are other large charging networks that compete with them that don't price their products the same way. So all it's going to do is to have people stop using their chargers.

 

And as others have pointed out, people don't use charging stations the way you would if you were to own an ICE, they are not "gas stations" for EVs. The normal place to charge is at home, and the charging networks are primarily only used when you are traveling long distances outside of your regular route.


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