Formula 1 2022 Season Discussion

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#2930700 17-Jun-2022 08:56

Other sports use ground effect. Maybe they can raise ride height 6 inches, ban tracks with bumps and reduce top speed to 140kph to help???

Or perhaps teams can manage their car better????

Seems like a help Mercedes issue to me

Benoire

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#2930709 17-Jun-2022 09:04

tdgeek:

Other sports use ground effect. Maybe they can raise ride height 6 inches, ban tracks with bumps and reduce top speed to 140kph to help???

Or perhaps teams can manage their car better????

Seems like a help Mercedes issue to me

Nope its going to break the Mercedes completely. They are running so low to the ground to get a consistent ground effect that raising it will simply stop their downforce generation and they'll be slower... There are a lot more street circuits this year and this is making the bump effect worse... its not just Mercedes that are being affected by the bumping but theirs is made worse by the low ride height to control the purpoising... Eiether lots of the drivers are complaining about the stiffness of the suspensions and in the impacts on street circuits.

Now had the FIA introduced active suspension then you may have had a case about FIA/Merc.

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#2930759 17-Jun-2022 09:12

AFAIK they all have it to some extent and if there's no porpoising there's still the effect of the floor hitting the slightest bump with no suspension to cushion the shock. I don't know if that is worse now than it has been. The seats are carbon fibre with no padding.

tdgeek

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#2930831 17-Jun-2022 10:12

Benoire:

Nope its going to break the Mercedes completely. They are running so low to the ground to get a consistent ground effect that raising it will simply stop their downforce generation and they'll be slower... There are a lot more street circuits this year and this is making the bump effect worse... its not just Mercedes that are being affected by the bumping but theirs is made worse by the low ride height to control the purpoising... Eiether lots of the drivers are complaining about the stiffness of the suspensions and in the impacts on street circuits.

Now had the FIA introduced active suspension then you may have had a case about FIA/Merc.

Is that not a car design issue for Mercedes? Fix the design or raise the ride height, others have done it. All these cars hit the ground a lot every lap, see the sparks. If your car is bad, sort it

Benoire

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#2930837 17-Jun-2022 10:29

tdgeek:

Benoire:

Nope its going to break the Mercedes completely. They are running so low to the ground to get a consistent ground effect that raising it will simply stop their downforce generation and they'll be slower... There are a lot more street circuits this year and this is making the bump effect worse... its not just Mercedes that are being affected by the bumping but theirs is made worse by the low ride height to control the purpoising... Eiether lots of the drivers are complaining about the stiffness of the suspensions and in the impacts on street circuits.

Now had the FIA introduced active suspension then you may have had a case about FIA/Merc.

Is that not a car design issue for Mercedes? Fix the design or raise the ride height, others have done it. All these cars hit the ground a lot every lap, see the sparks. If your car is bad, sort it

Raising the ride height will remove the extreme issues Merc faced in Baku, they have even said so themselves, most if not all of the other teams also had the floor hitting the ground causing problems so its not necessarily a single team issue... sure Merc will be affected more by a mandated ride height increase as they're still resolving their problems but this will also impact RBR, Ferrari etc. as the increase will reduce maximum downforce generated by the floor. How much each team is affected will be seen in the next few races...

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#2930856 17-Jun-2022 11:17

Benoire:

Raising the ride height will remove the extreme issues Merc faced in Baku, they have even said so themselves, most if not all of the other teams also had the floor hitting the ground causing problems so its not necessarily a single team issue... sure Merc will be affected more by a mandated ride height increase as they're still resolving their problems but this will also impact RBR, Ferrari etc. as the increase will reduce maximum downforce generated by the floor. How much each team is affected will be seen in the next few races...

Have lots of drivers complained about bouncing? Not the usual driver complaints (Ive got no grip on the first minute of FP1) but have lots complained about pain and safety? I dont read every sentence published but Ive not seen that. Ive seen cars bouncing on the track forever

Dont the cars have bounce rubbers to put a floor on the ride height? I thought they didnt, could be wrong

Storm in a teacup over one driver that was affected by the car the team gave him. If its raining you put wets on if ride height is too low you raise it whats the real issue here? If my car is too slow can I have an extra 30HP please??

Benoire

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#2930862 17-Jun-2022 11:33

You seem to only be focused on one particular driver? Sainz, Riccardio and Verstappen have all said that something needed to be done about the bouncing off the ground after Baku. Mercedes will be worse off with this mandated rule as they need to run low to the ground to resolve some of their issues.. What merc want is active suspension back but this is not that and is going to kill their performance... The drivers have been talking about this since the first race but the increase in street tracks are making it worse as they not smooth like permanent race tracks.

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Bung

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#2930866 17-Jun-2022 11:45

tdgeek:
Have lots of drivers complained about bouncing?

Yes it's more widespread than just Lewis H. The current drivers know that some drivers in the previous ground effect days had to retire prematurely so they know what could happen to them. They already wear accelerometers so the data is available.

The FIA has decided to do something.

"The FIA has issued a technical directive that will introduce short-term measures to put a limit on the vertical oscillations caused by porpoising and bouncing cars, as well as exploring what it calls medium-term changes to eliminate the problem."

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#2930869 17-Jun-2022 12:02

Benoire:

You seem to only be focused on one particular driver? Sainz, Riccardio and Verstappen have all said that something needed to be done about the bouncing off the ground after Baku. Mercedes will be worse off with this mandated rule as they need to run low to the ground to resolve some of their issues.. What merc want is active suspension back but this is not that and is going to kill their performance... The drivers have been talking about this since the first race but the increase in street tracks are making it worse as they not smooth like permanent race tracks.

Id not seen anything apart from Lewis's back issues post race. Are Mercedes worse off or are they making it worse off by trying to gain speed from too low a ride height/poor design?

Isn't Baku bumpy inherently, as are most street tracks? It seems to me that tracks can be bumpy by nature and teams dont want to avoid the bumps as they want speed so now its a desire to force team not to run the ride height that they chose to run? That will help teams with a poor car and adversely affect teams who designed the better car. Ride height too low so raise it, but to force every car to be raised isnt fair IMO. Its not like all cars are dangerous on all tracks due to design issues. Those who run lower are asking for porpoising

Be easier to just ban ground effect, obviously thats not doable overnight. Brundle says other formulas use ground effect but its a bit too hard for F1 designers??

Seems a bit bizarre to me to be honest. Next thing we will be saying to rugby players, no one in the line out of your over 6 foot tall as thats not fair

tdgeek

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#2930870 17-Jun-2022 12:05

Bung:
tdgeek:

Have lots of drivers complained about bouncing?

Yes it's more widespread than just Lewis H. The current drivers know that some drivers in the previous ground effect days had to retire prematurely so they know what could happen to them. They already wear accelerometers so the data is available.

The FIA has decided to do something.

"The FIA has issued a technical directive that will introduce short-term measures to put a limit on the vertical oscillations caused by porpoising and bouncing cars, as well as exploring what it calls medium-term changes to eliminate the problem."

It will limit the problem. Poor cars get a free ride at the expense of those who did well to design a car within the new regs

Benoire

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#2930871 17-Jun-2022 12:05

tdgeek:

Id not seen anything apart from Lewis's back issues post race. Are Mercedes worse off or are they making it worse off by trying to gain speed from too low a ride height/poor design?

Isn't Baku bumpy inherently, as are most street tracks? It seems to me that tracks can be bumpy by nature and teams dont want to avoid the bumps as they want speed so now its a desire to force team not to run the ride height that they chose to run? That will help teams with a poor car and adversely affect teams who designed the better car. Ride height too low so raise it, but to force every car to be raised isnt fair IMO. Its not like all cars are dangerous on all tracks due to design issues. Those who run lower are asking for porpoising

Be easier to just ban ground effect, obviously thats not doable overnight. Brundle says other formulas use ground effect but its a bit too hard for F1 designers??

Seems a bit bizarre to me to be honest. Next thing we will be saying to rugby players, no one in the line out of your over 6 foot tall as thats not fair

The merc is the worse simply as they have to run so low to the ground to solve their ground effect problems which is why Hamilton asked if there was something wrong with the car as his seat was cold; nope dude you've just got a numb bum. So yes, they made a worse situation really worse by doing this but as noted by others, the drivers are complaining generally and have sensors to confirm this. Utlimtately the FIA have to step in otherwise the teams, for fear of losing out, will never implement changes.

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#2930873 17-Jun-2022 12:10

Benoire:

The merc is the worse simply as they have to run so low to the ground to solve their ground effect problems which is why Hamilton asked if there was something wrong with the car as his seat was cold; nope dude you've just got a numb bum. So yes, they made a worse situation really worse by doing this but as noted by others, the drivers are complaining generally and have sensors to confirm this. Utlimtately the FIA have to step in otherwise the teams, for fear of losing out, will never implement changes.

Ok. Ill go back to my corner, just seems that all teams have spanners to resolve the bouncing, so FIA has to order them to use them. Some spanners dont need much turning to resolve the issue, so they will miss out to cater for the cars that are less well designed. Make the ride height 2 feet and be dumb with it! :-)

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#2930874 17-Jun-2022 12:10

tdgeek:

It will limit the problem. Poor cars get a free ride at the expense of those who did well to design a car within the new regs

I'm not sure how you get to that conclusion? Ground effect requires a stiff suspension setup and constant ride height in order to work. If a car has to run low to the ground, e.g. Merc, to acheive the ground effect it needs then raising the ride height will make it slower. If you're able to achieve ground effect at a higher ride height already then the car will lose downforce but not as much as those that are needing to run lower as you won't need to raise it as much. The RBR, for example, runs a higher ride height, and so won't be raised much to acheive the requirements (if at all on some tracks) and bearing in mind its still the fastest car in race trim then they will most likely canter off in to the distance now as a result.

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#2930877 17-Jun-2022 12:22

Benoire:

I'm not sure how you get to that conclusion? Ground effect requires a stiff suspension setup and constant ride height in order to work. If a car has to run low to the ground, e.g. Merc, to acheive the ground effect it needs then raising the ride height will make it slower. If you're able to achieve ground effect at a higher ride height already then the car will lose downforce but not as much as those that are needing to run lower as you won't need to raise it as much. The RBR, for example, runs a higher ride height, and so won't be raised much to acheive the requirements (if at all on some tracks) and bearing in mind its still the fastest car in race trim then they will most likely canter off in to the distance now as a result.

They say they are slow due to ride height being too high. They say if they lower ride height to get more speed they oscillate. Is that a regulation issue or a car design issue? They need to find the best compromise ride height.

My point is that regs were changed, and the car that has the best combo of HP, mechanical grip and aero grip will do very well. Mercedes aced that in 2014, they 100% deserve their Constructor awards. They have failed in 2022, so the rules will be wound back somewhat to allow them to catch up. I dont agree. Read two articles it mentioned Sainz as well as George and Lewis and a sentence from Danny Ricc. I was expecting stuff from lots of drivers. Odd or cynical that these drivers all have something in common in 2022? The other article said Mercedes got their way

So I dunno

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#2930880 17-Jun-2022 12:31

Really two sides to this coin. Some manufactures have been able to make something work fairly well, others haven't. One in particular has a radically different design and performs the worst...

Being 'pinnacle' of motorsport, the current situation is crap. Cars bouncing down the straights make it all look a bit ridiculous. Active suspension may well need to come in to improve the situation if other teams can't make this work either. Unfortunate for likes of red bull who may lose their advantage if others gain the benefit of the active change to sort a problem they actually could work with.

This years cars still have issues around not being able to pass. They can follow much closer, but now we just have DRS trains waiting for the artificial DRS boost to get them ahead.

We still have issues of tyres not providing enough variability to spice up the race. Still no refuelling, so not a lot of strategy options currently exist, other than hoping for safety cars, Ferrari engines to let go or rain.

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