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Forums › Politics › Donald Trump, US President #47, US President #45, convicted felon, twice impeached, four times indicted, liable of rape, convicted for financial fraud, guilty of hiding hush money payments to porn actress in attempt to influence 2016 elections
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DarthKermit

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  #1696370 29-Dec-2016 22:31
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If Trumpy should push the button and nuke the world next year (or later) I'll be demanding an apology from all you Trump supporters (shortly before I turn to ash). tongue-out

tdgeek
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  #1696381 29-Dec-2016 22:45
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DarthKermit:

 

If Trumpy should push the button and nuke the world next year (or later) I'll be demanding an apology from all you Trump supporters (shortly before I turn to ash). tongue-out

 

 

Noted. Im not a supporter, but I also don't have a problem with him, I feel he is harmless. Others here feel he is a danger to humanity. Maybe he will take America out of the centre of the universe, maybe thats not a bad thing, but OTOH, many scenarios exist. I see him as a blip on the radar. 

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  #1696391 29-Dec-2016 22:54
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DarthKermit:

 

If Trumpy should push the button and nuke the world next year (or later) I'll be demanding an apology from all you Trump supporters (shortly before I turn to ash). tongue-out

 

 

 

 

I remember a TV program when I was growing up with the Russians just the other side of the Rhine and nukes all over the place.

 

It followed the usual possible WW3 scenarios and one character asked another what he'd be doing if the balloon went up. The reply was something like "I'll be as pissed as a fart, standing underneath the first one!"

 

Always seemed the best way to deal with it to me.





gzt

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  #1696393 29-Dec-2016 23:12
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tdgeek:

gzt:
JimsonWeed:


gzt:
JimsonWeed: Again... relying on the popular vote by itself is flawed logic. If it were just based on popular voting, all the candidates would need to do is focus on California, Florida, New York, and Texas.

Once again, your logic is flawed and based on an incorrect understanding of the electoral college.


Ah well.. let's agree to disagree.  :)


 


In the meantime, consider the points discussed in this book. You can reference it at books.google.co.nz with the search criteria, "electoral college".


Bugh, G. (Ed.). (2016). Electoral College Reform: Challenges and Possibilities. Routledge.


Cheers



I don't think we are at that stage yet! : ). Fact:

- Florida has approx 17% of the population of the USA
- Florida has approx 17% of the votes in the electoral college

Both true. You are continuing to claim that Donald Trump won because the electoral college was created so that states with large populations would have less influence. That claim is clearly not accurate on many levels.

Those are the facts.


Ok, for call. Im not really favouring popular vote or electoral boundaries, but, how do all the states stack up? I don't expect you to research that, but Florida is one state. Like here, some electorates favour one party. Say there was a National electorate, biggish, they could add in a Labour sector as that wont affect the result, but it may help the next guy in that other electorate. Popular vote does have its merits if it was illegal not to vote = peoples choice. The next step is how to manage regions.


As I noted earlier, that 17% figure should be 6% for both figures.

But it's worse. There are lies, damn lies, and badly calculated statistics.

I should be comparing the actual number of electoral votes to the ideal number of electoral votes.

For instance Florida currently has 29 votes in the college. On a pure population basis, Florida would have approx 34 votes.

ajobbins
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  #1696400 29-Dec-2016 23:33
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JimsonWeed:

 

 

 

Interesting view you have there.  Actually, voter fraud is fairly common. 

 

Actually, it's not. There is no evidence of significant voter fraud despite what Fox news might tell you based on their feelpinions. Do you have some evidence of widespread voter fraud? Because the GOP would love some!

 

Incidentally why wouldn't you expect voters to have IDs?  Is there a problem with a person getting an ID? 

 

The issue isn't about having to show ID exactly  it's that yes, there are huge problems with many voters obtaining ID. Needing ID to vote isn't univeral within the US - but it's compulsory in many states with strong republican backing where minorities might cost them their power. 

 

"Soon after Obama’s election, a surge of Republican-led state legislatures passed laws requiring photo IDs."

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a-photo-id-so-you-can-vote-is-easy-unless-youre-poor-black-latino-or-elderly/2016/05/23/8d5474ec-20f0-11e6-8690-f14ca9de2972_story.html?utm_term=.c3b3d57f23a5

 

Come to think of it, you can't vote anywhere in NZ without proving your identity can you?  

 

You don't need ID - just need to tell them your name and address.

 

Also, why do you suppose it is that minorities generally vote the Democratic party ticket? 

 

Because Republicans have almost always made life worse for minorities.

 

 




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mattwnz
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  #1696407 29-Dec-2016 23:48
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tdgeek:

DarthKermit:


If Trumpy should push the button and nuke the world next year (or later) I'll be demanding an apology from all you Trump supporters (shortly before I turn to ash). tongue-out



Noted. Im not a supporter, but I also don't have a problem with him, I feel he is harmless. Others here feel he is a danger to humanity. Maybe he will take America out of the centre of the universe, maybe thats not a bad thing, but OTOH, many scenarios exist. I see him as a blip on the radar. 



I feel he is harmless to a degree, but I also feel he is volitle and shoots from the hip. An example of this is the way he uses twitter, by not checking things before he sends a tweet. He regular tweets in the middle of the night from an android phone when he sees something he doesn't like. You then find that the tweet has been changed in the morning by an iPhone. So he obviously has a team behind him that check on things and clean up and mistakes. Hopefully when they give him the nuke button, it will just be a dummy button, a bit like that fake red chair leaver on the graham norton show.

ajobbins
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  #1696411 30-Dec-2016 01:18
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https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/814216849936252928

 

If the above is true, and I have no reason to believe a respected journalist would fabricate a transcript, it would suggest to me some obvious cognitive decline. When asked directly about this comment and with direct reference to Obama, he contradicted himself and it appears he actually had no recollection of the comments he made only hours earlier on social media. 

 


Trump's father Fred Trump was known to suffer Alzheimer's disease for a number of years before his death. Heritability of Alzheimer's disease is thought to be somewhere between about 50% to 80% (various studies), so that would give Donald Trump a much higher likelihood of developing Alzheimer's than the general population. 




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DarthKermit

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  #1696425 30-Dec-2016 09:09
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mattwnz:

I feel he is harmless to a degree, but I also feel he is volitle and shoots from the hip. An example of this is the way he uses twitter, by not checking things before he sends a tweet. He regular tweets in the middle of the night from an android phone when he sees something he doesn't like. You then find that the tweet has been changed in the morning by an iPhone. So he obviously has a team behind him that check on things and clean up and mistakes. Hopefully when they give him the nuke button, it will just be a dummy button, a bit like that fake red chair leaver on the graham norton show.

 

I wonder if Trumpy thinks that starting WW3 is a smartphone app? Perhaps the nice app developers can rig it so that when Trump throws a temper tantrum and presses the big shiny red LAUNCH button on his Android phone, nothing really happens. wink

tdgeek
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  #1696432 30-Dec-2016 09:47
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mattwnz:
tdgeek:

 

DarthKermit:

 

 

 

If Trumpy should push the button and nuke the world next year (or later) I'll be demanding an apology from all you Trump supporters (shortly before I turn to ash). tongue-out

 

 

 

 

 

 

Noted. Im not a supporter, but I also don't have a problem with him, I feel he is harmless. Others here feel he is a danger to humanity. Maybe he will take America out of the centre of the universe, maybe thats not a bad thing, but OTOH, many scenarios exist. I see him as a blip on the radar. 

 



I feel he is harmless to a degree, but I also feel he is volitle and shoots from the hip. An example of this is the way he uses twitter, by not checking things before he sends a tweet. He regular tweets in the middle of the night from an android phone when he sees something he doesn't like. You then find that the tweet has been changed in the morning by an iPhone. So he obviously has a team behind him that check on things and clean up and mistakes. Hopefully when they give him the nuke button, it will just be a dummy button, a bit like that fake red chair leaver on the graham norton show.

 

Yep, he stumbles along, mouth before brain. Thats harmless to us, it will affect relations with the US and other countries, too bad. Real stuff, like running the country and nukes will be managed by GOP, using Trump as the official representative of them. Forget nukes, that wont happen

JimsonWeed
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  #1696435 30-Dec-2016 10:11
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ajobbins:

 

JimsonWeed:

 

Interesting view you have there.  Actually, voter fraud is fairly common. 

 

Actually, it's not. There is no evidence of significant voter fraud despite what Fox news might tell you based on their feelpinions. Do you have some evidence of widespread voter fraud? Because the GOP would love some!

 

Incidentally why wouldn't you expect voters to have IDs?  Is there a problem with a person getting an ID? 

 

The issue isn't about having to show ID exactly  it's that yes, there are huge problems with many voters obtaining ID. Needing ID to vote isn't univeral within the US - but it's compulsory in many states with strong republican backing where minorities might cost them their power. 

 

"Soon after Obama’s election, a surge of Republican-led state legislatures passed laws requiring photo IDs."

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a-photo-id-so-you-can-vote-is-easy-unless-youre-poor-black-latino-or-elderly/2016/05/23/8d5474ec-20f0-11e6-8690-f14ca9de2972_story.html?utm_term=.c3b3d57f23a5

 

Come to think of it, you can't vote anywhere in NZ without proving your identity can you?  

 

You don't need ID - just need to tell them your name and address.

 

Also, why do you suppose it is that minorities generally vote the Democratic party ticket? 

 

Because Republicans have almost always made life worse for minorities.

 

 

1: Voter fraud is quite common in everything from Prom Queen to POTUS.  It's not just an "American" thing - it's global.  That is the principle driver behind identification laws.

 

2: Thanks for the information on NZ voting. I wasn't sure if we had laws to force identification.

 

3: The ID Laws will work like a sweeping net.  Some people will be unfairly impacted in an attempt to tighten the controls.  It's no different than NZ Customs wanting to have a law granting them the authority to demand a password for encrypted devices.  A broad brush will often over paint the intended area.

 

4: Perhaps we can flip the statement to say; Because Democrats have made it easier.  If you don't have an education, tyre changing or handing out fish and chips is about the peak of one's potential in a competitive job market.  Granted, ever since the civil war there has been some degree of oppression on minorities but, it's not just the Republicans exacting that toll on people.  So, if you are too stupid, too lazy, or for whatever reason you don't raise your kids to get a good education, enjoy the fruits of your labour.  It's the same here.  There is still an oppression of certain minorities in NZ.  Does National seek to rectify this or is there any particular party that favours those voting blocks.  The bottom line is, nobody wants to work hard only to give away what they have to someone else, regardless of their minority status.  If you have a large contingent of people who believe in the redistribution of wealth and what-not, you will always have people saying "Get a job".  It make appear that Republicans have made life worse for minorities but look around you... "minority" is by far the wrong word to use today - even in NZ;

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/03/04/390672196/for-u-s-children-minorities-will-be-the-majority-by-2020-census-says

 

http://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/auckland-population/

 

BTW, it was surprising how many minorities turned their backs on the Democratic party and voted for Trump.  Of course the Latinos did not support him because of his "wall" comments but, given the world geo-political problems.. the wall is a very good idea.  Right now, it is pretty much an open border between Mexico and all the states along the US Southwest.  It's easier to get into the US through that hole than it is for people to drift ashore in Australia or New Zealand.  Supposing you had 100,000 immigrants sneaking into New Zealand every year.  Would you stand for that?

 

Have any of you ever lived in the US for any length of time?

 

 

 

 

frankv
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  #1696439 30-Dec-2016 10:45
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JimsonWeed:

 

 

Also, why do you suppose it is that minorities generally vote the Democratic party ticket? 

 

Because Republicans have almost always made life worse for minorities.

 

 

4: Perhaps we can flip the statement to say; Because Democrats have made it easier.  If you don't have an education, tyre changing or handing out fish and chips is about the peak of one's potential in a competitive job market.  Granted, ever since the civil war there has been some degree of oppression on minorities but, it's not just the Republicans exacting that toll on people.

 

 

Yes, it's about a balance between competition and cooperation ("every man for himself" and "share out evenly", capitalism vs socialism). The Democrats tend towards socialism (a little), the Republicans tend towards capitalism.

 

And, actually, oppression of minorities went on well before the Civil War.

 

 

  So, if you are too stupid, too lazy, or for whatever reason you don't raise your kids to get a good education, enjoy the fruits of your labour.  It's the same here. 

 

 

What about if you're not stupid or lazy (or whatever pejorative "for whatever reason" covers)? What if, because of your own lack of opportunity, there *are* no fruits of your labour? What if you're too *poor* to raise your kids to get a good education?

 

Isn't it 

 

(a) *fair* for all people to at least be given the opportunity to better themselves?, and

 

(b) better for the vast majority (excluding the very wealthy) for all people to achieve the peak of their potential and thus contribute to society?

 

Incidentally, the stupid/lazy argument has been thoroughly discredited... where supposedly stupid/lazy people have been given a real opportunity, they have done very well.

 

 

JimsonWeed
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  #1696461 30-Dec-2016 11:30
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frankv:

 

JimsonWeed:

 

 

Also, why do you suppose it is that minorities generally vote the Democratic party ticket? 

 

Because Republicans have almost always made life worse for minorities.

 

 

4: Perhaps we can flip the statement to say; Because Democrats have made it easier.  If you don't have an education, tyre changing or handing out fish and chips is about the peak of one's potential in a competitive job market.  Granted, ever since the civil war there has been some degree of oppression on minorities but, it's not just the Republicans exacting that toll on people.

 

 

Yes, it's about a balance between competition and cooperation ("every man for himself" and "share out evenly", capitalism vs socialism). The Democrats tend towards socialism (a little), the Republicans tend towards capitalism.

 

And, actually, oppression of minorities went on well before the Civil War.

 

 

  So, if you are too stupid, too lazy, or for whatever reason you don't raise your kids to get a good education, enjoy the fruits of your labour.  It's the same here. 

 

 

What about if you're not stupid or lazy (or whatever pejorative "for whatever reason" covers)? What if, because of your own lack of opportunity, there *are* no fruits of your labour? What if you're too *poor* to raise your kids to get a good education?

 

Isn't it 

 

(a) *fair* for all people to at least be given the opportunity to better themselves?, and

 

(b) better for the vast majority (excluding the very wealthy) for all people to achieve the peak of their potential and thus contribute to society?

 

Incidentally, the stupid/lazy argument has been thoroughly discredited... where supposedly stupid/lazy people have been given a real opportunity, they have done very well.

 

 

You're exactly right.  I should have exercised better judgment than to use "stupid and lazy" as an argument. Many people are disadvantaged for a myriad of reasons, wealth, health, availability or resources, etc, etc, ad nauseam, ad infinitum.  Spot on - good call!

 

To your points (A and B), absolutely!  I am a staunch supporter of this ideology.  Now... separate the wheat from the chaff.  If you open your doors to provide these things, then you have those who would either take advantage of the system or, invite those in who would harm the people representing the ideology of the whole system.  It only takes a handful to destroy and we've seen it throughout history.  So, how do we provide those things to the people who would use and benefit society while at the same time, protect these people from those who would do them harm?  Many of the problems today began eons ago when one country or another stuck their nose in where it didn't belong.  As a result, we are all suffering from it today.  I would love to solve world problems and that's why I do what I can to avoid becoming ideologically welded to a particular belief system.  Especially those with labels.  The native Americans were socialist by nature - some would rule, some would hunt, some would defend but overall, they did so for the betterment of the tribe.  Try setting up a country under this philosophy.  The inherent greed and thirst for power will ultimately push one, two, or more to seek advantage over their fellow being.  It's just the way the stuff we are made of - right, wrong, or indifferent.  I'd still like to contribute to the betterment though.

 

As for the oppression of minorities - England, Scotland, Holland, and maybe Spain were involved in the slave trade.  They bartered with African tribes to provide slavery.  At first, one tribe would dominate another tribe and sell them into slavery.  Eventually, they turned on one another.  While this does not absolve the wealthy of their crime of enslaving another human being, it certainly contributed to it.  If I am not mistaken, it was around Queen Victoria's reign that slavery was abolished in England and it also began to pressure other nations to follow suit.

 

Reaching back in time, and pardon the injection of religion here but... I don't think the Bible speaks of slavery as being evil.  However, it does speak to how the slave masters treated their slaves.  Before your neck hair stands on ends.. No, I am not in favour of slavery in the least :)  No, no, no...  It's just a reference to how long slavery has been with us.  There are more people being trafficked around in the sex trade slavery than there were ever slaves in all the countries combined.  However, the outcry for the injustice is far less resounding than that which occurred centuries ago.  Why is that?  Anyhow.. I've wandered tangential but, your words were spot on.  It speaks well of you.

 

 

 

 

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  #1696474 30-Dec-2016 12:08
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What a man...




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jarledb
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  #1696485 30-Dec-2016 13:20
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And he is taking credit for boosting the economy and for increased christmas spending.

 

Good grief, the commander in thief... 




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JimsonWeed
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  #1696486 30-Dec-2016 13:25
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jarledb:

 

And he is taking credit for boosting the economy and for increased christmas spending.

 

Good grief, the commander in thief... 

 

 

It's a reflection of people's confidence in the incoming administration.  Surely we all agree that under the previous (and current) administration, it's been horrendously poor growth on a global scale.  Still though, I'll concede to the potentially fallacy in logic; post hoc ergo proctor hoc.

 

Let's apply Occam's Razor and ask the question; What is the most likely reason for the upturn in the economy?

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