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Awrrr
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#2125443 14-Nov-2018 10:35

MikeB4:

When was it the right time during the National Government to re-enter the mine?

This has been endlessly debated since the disaster. I'm not going to relitigate it here. But there are many, many opinions to choose from.

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MikeB4

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#2125491 14-Nov-2018 11:29

Rikkitic:

MikeB4:

When was it the right time during the National Government to re-enter the mine?

This has been endlessly debated since the disaster. I'm not going to relitigate it here. But there are many, many opinions to choose from. Here is one.

Your link is broken

Rikkitic

Awrrr
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#2125499 14-Nov-2018 11:41

Sorry, it was working when I put it up. Maybe it is some kind of Facebook thing to force people to join. I will try again.

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MikeB4

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#2125506 14-Nov-2018 11:49

Rikkitic:

MikeB4:

When was it the right time during the National Government to re-enter the mine?

This has been endlessly debated since the disaster. I'm not going to relitigate it here. But there are many, many opinions to choose from.

Where are the citations and references to back up these "facts"

Bluntj

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#2125507 14-Nov-2018 11:49

Rikkitic:

Sorry, it was working when I put it up. Maybe it is some kind of Facebook thing to force people to join. I will try again.

I always believe what I read on facebook.

6FIEND

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#2125509 14-Nov-2018 11:51

networkn: This governments decision to make Pike River a political issue and to enter again at a cost of 38m which I bet will be higher is a complete disgrace.

If someone gets hurt or killed in this attempt, Jacinda and Little should step down and face criminal charges.

My memory on this is a little unclear, but wasn't the Pike River tragedy the catalyst for new legislation that toughened up on criminal liability for company owners who knowingly put employees at risk?

Wasn't this same legislation one of the reasons why the previous government argued that they couldn't sign off on a recovery exercise because of the inherent dangers?

Has the current coalition made changes to that legislation? Or are they intending to accept the risk? (Or find somebody else to accept liability?)

MikeB4

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#2125513 14-Nov-2018 11:57

6FIEND:

networkn: This governments decision to make Pike River a political issue and to enter again at a cost of 38m which I bet will be higher is a complete disgrace.

If someone gets hurt or killed in this attempt, Jacinda and Little should step down and face criminal charges.

My memory on this is a little unclear, but wasn't the Pike River tragedy the catalyst for new legislation that toughened up on criminal liability for company owners who knowingly put employees at risk?

Wasn't this same legislation one of the reasons why the previous government argued that they couldn't sign off on a recovery exercise because of the inherent dangers?

Has the current coalition made changes to that legislation? Or are they intending to accept the risk? (Or find somebody else to accept liability?)

One of Jacinda Arderns advisors is Helen Clark, I am sure that if anything happens JA will follow Helen Clarks example and go overseas and let Winston Peters and Kelvin Davis take the heat.

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Rikkitic

Awrrr
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#2125514 14-Nov-2018 11:57

Here is another link that may be even better. The last paragraphs in particular do a good job of articulating what I feel about recovering the bodies. She captures perfectly why this is important and why it matters. Civilised people do not abandon others when a disaster occurs. They do not leave their dead behind. Surely as someone close to the military you can appreciate this. I think it is a fundamental principle and cost has nothing to do with it. Otherwise the victims of the Tangiwai rail catastrophe would still be lying in the Whangaehu River. As the author points out, recovery of the Erebus victims was also dangerous and expensive and the National government of that time also didn't want to do it for those reasons. This seems to be a recurring policy of National but it got done because it was the right thing to do and people insisted on it.

As far as I can determine, only two of the Pike River families have objected to recovery of the remains. The others are united in a passionate determination to properly farewell their loved ones. Perhaps a way can be found to accommodate both.

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Rikkitic

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#2125516 14-Nov-2018 12:01

MikeB4:

Where are the citations and references to back up these "facts"

Take it or leave it. I think some of the points mentioned are worthy of further investigation but I'm not prepared to do it for you.

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networkn

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#2125525 14-Nov-2018 12:11

Rikkitic:

networkn: This governments decision to make Pike River a political issue and to enter again at a cost of 38m which I bet will be higher is a complete disgrace.

The families who lost loved ones don't think so. If National had done the right thing at the time Labour wouldn't have to now.

What an absoloute load of crap! It was deemed by the experts at the time to be too dangerous, and it's been told to the current investigation by experts that it's still too dangerous, but they have chosen to listen to the people that supported their campaign promise (made without an investigation I might add) instead. Also the current law makes the people who order the re-entry, entirely responsible. As I understand it, Labour is going to give itself an exclusion to this somehow so that if someone gets hurt or killled, JA and AL can have no consequences.

These people are dead. It's a tragedy, but risking other peoples lives to bring out dead bodies is just insanity in my view.

To my view, if there is ANY risk of injury or death to another, then that should end the entire idea. Even if this recovery goes PERFECTLY and no one gets hurt and everything the families want, they get, it's STILL an unacceptable risk and the wrong decision.

I am sorry (deeply) for the loss that the families have suffered, but no matter what happen(s)ed we need to support them on the difficult task of moving on with their lives.

Rikkitic

Awrrr
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#2125529 14-Nov-2018 12:17

Read the second link I posted. They are valid points, well thought-out and presented, not activist rants. They deserve serious consideration.

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MikeB4

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#2125530 14-Nov-2018 12:18

Rikkitic:

Here is another link that may be even better. The last paragraphs in particular do a good job of articulating what I feel about recovering the bodies. She captures perfectly why this is important and why it matters. Civilised people do not abandon others when a disaster occurs. They do not leave their dead behind. Surely as someone close to the military you can appreciate this. I think it is a fundamental principle and cost has nothing to do with it. Otherwise the victims of the Tangiwai rail catastrophe would still be lying in the Whangaehu River. As the author points out, recovery of the Erebus victims was also dangerous and expensive and the National government of that time also didn't want to do it for those reasons. This seems to be a recurring policy of National but it got done because it was the right thing to do and people insisted on it.

As far as I can determine, only two of the Pike River families have objected to recovery of the remains. The others are united in a passionate determination to properly farewell their loved ones. Perhaps a way can be found to accommodate both.

As I have stated before on GZ my family has a long military history and have lost members in conflict. When my sons deployed overseas in harms way we discussed this subject. They were adament that should they be killed in combat they did not want any lives put at risk to recover their remains, and we (myself and my wife) agreed with them.

There are many Navy and merchant Navy service people that were lost during the wars and in many cases it was too risky to recover the remains and they remain in the wreck which are deemed War graves.

networkn

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#2125534 14-Nov-2018 12:25

I am not an activist, nor was my commentary a rant. It's not fair and reasonable to risk lives to recover bodies. They are emtombed and a nice memorial could have been erected, and the families given money to help them for the future. Nothing will bring back these souls. No matter what the families think, this re-entry will not absolve their loss.

I would have supported some risk and unlimited money to rescue living people however. Thai Cave rescue was absoloutely the right thing to do, and the cost is irrelevant in that situation.

It's disgraceful that Labour sought to make it a political issue. Unsurprisingly Winston was on the bandwagon in a flash too.

How many people could be helped with this $38 MILLION dollars?

networkn

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#2125536 14-Nov-2018 12:26

MikeB4:

As I have stated before on GZ my family has a long military history and have lost members in conflict. When my sons deployed overseas in harms way we discussed this subject. They were adament that should they be killed in combat they did not want any lives put at risk to recover their remains, and we (myself and my wife) agreed with them.

There are many Navy and merchant Navy service people that were lost during the wars and in many cases it was too risky to recover the remains and they remain in the wreck which are deemed War graves.

Both sides of my family had military as well, I know both sides felt a similar way. You don't risk lives to recover bodies.

For the record, if I was killed in the mine, I would NOT have supported my recovery if there was even %1 of risk.

Rikkitic

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#2125537 14-Nov-2018 12:28

On a completely different subject, I submit this as a counter to all the anti-government dribble of the last couple pages. There is another side to this story.

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