Kia Ora: Should this be used in official Government correspondence?

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#2016191 15-May-2018 10:42

JimmyH:

However, I think making it compulsory is a step too far. At risk of offending supporters, most NZers aren't Maori and for a great many of them they have only a passing interest in Te Reo, or in some cases no interest at all. Moreover, there is pretty much no where in this country where you can't get by with English, and there are only so many hours in a school day. They key question is that if someone is made to take Te Reo when they don't want to, then it will inevitably "crowd out" something else that they are interested in, and which would be more useful to them in later life.

I personally have no interest in Te Reo, but I recognise it's important.

The govt has a treaty obligation to preserve the language. The best way to do that is to have kids (all kids not just Maori kids) learning it early. Being bi-lingual early in life makes it easy to pick up languages later. The spill over benefits are worth googling too.

Based on observation of my kids primary and intermediate schools, there is plenty of dross in the school-week that could be sidelined (silly field trips, visiting entertainers etc etc).

Sign language would be interesting to learn. Would make communication in a noisy bar a lot easier. Presumably, no pronunciation snobs with sign language either ...

Mike

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#2020217 22-May-2018 10:04

This is how it should be.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

JimmyH

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#2020232 22-May-2018 10:28

MikeAqua:

The govt has a treaty obligation to preserve the language. The best way to do that is to have kids (all kids not just Maori kids) learning it early.

I would venture to suggest that the Government has an obligation to support Maori and others to preserve the language if they want to.

It can't by itself, preserve the language. Ultimately, if a critical mass of people don't willingly want to use the language and keep it alive then it will die. There's actually not a lot the Government could do about that. After all if compelling reluctant people to learn a language that they don't have an interest in using while they are at school was a viable strategy for preserving a language, then Latin and classical Greek would still be vibrant and in everyday use.

MikeAqua

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#2020996 23-May-2018 10:30

JimmyH:

I would venture to suggest that the Government has an obligation to support Maori and others to preserve the language if they want to.

It can't by itself, preserve the language.

I agree with you. In practical terms the govt needs people to speak the language for it to be preserved.

In the absence of active speakers, the best the govt could do would be to record the language and make such records available to anyone who wishes access.

I don't think it will come to that, as there is very strong will among Maori to preserve the language. There is also practical implementation through immersion schools, some of which go up to year 13.

Mike

frednz

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#2024476 29-May-2018 10:03

https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/104218555/please-speak-in-a-language-99-of-us-understand-racist-remarks-derail-maunga-meeting

From the above:

"Please speak in a language 99 per cent of us here understand," said the person who introduced himself as Simon Clark.

"If I stood here and spoke Cantonese, Mandarin or Eskimo, would anybody stay?"

Hauraki resident Laura Martin said the mihi ended up switching to English half-way through as a result of the bickering, which she said up to 50 people were involved in.

I think this meeting illustrated an important point, which is, that nearly all Maoris understand English well, but only a very few Pakehas understand Maori well.

I guess this situation may change over time, but in the meantime, people need to keep this fact in mind!

Starlith

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#2024563 29-May-2018 11:09

frednz:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/104218555/please-speak-in-a-language-99-of-us-understand-racist-remarks-derail-maunga-meeting

From the above:

"Please speak in a language 99 per cent of us here understand," said the person who introduced himself as Simon Clark.

"If I stood here and spoke Cantonese, Mandarin or Eskimo, would anybody stay?"

Hauraki resident Laura Martin said the mihi ended up switching to English half-way through as a result of the bickering, which she said up to 50 people were involved in.

I think this meeting illustrated an important point, which is, that nearly all Maoris understand English well, but only a very few Pakehas understand Maori well.

I guess this situation may change over time, but in the meantime, people need to keep this fact in mind!

First of all it is rude in any language and culture to interrupt the speaker of the meeting.

Second it was only the mihi that is done in Maori the main context of the meeting was done in English it was even stated as such.

The mihi is an introduction of sorts to a meeting. We as Maori go out of our way to learn English and customs, I would like there to be the same effort from Pakeha as I have seen from the younger generation and my partner but there is a refusal of some and many excuses along the way.

I suggest to many that outright refuse to learn the culture of Maori for many excuses or personal reasons to check yourself. I was never bitter at not knowing what they were saying at the Marae when I was young but I was respectful and learned to not interrupt during a speech and asked what I could do to best understand.

We are all on the same boat, we need to build bridges together and we need to learn about each other more and be open to both worlds of Pakeha and Maori. We may not or never be truly as one but we should always look for a way to work together for the benefit of future generations and guardians of the land to work as a team.

MikeAqua

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#2024595 29-May-2018 11:53

Starlith:

The mihi is an introduction of sorts to a meeting. We as Maori go out of our way to learn English and customs, I would like there to be the same effort from Pakeha as I have seen from the younger generation and my partner but there is a refusal of some and many excuses along the way.

I suggest to many that outright refuse to learn the culture of Maori for many excuses or personal reasons to check yourself. I was never bitter at not knowing what they were saying at the Marae when I was young but I was respectful and learned to not interrupt during a speech and asked what I could do to best understand.

We are all on the same boat, we need to build bridges together and we need to learn about each other more and be open to both worlds of Pakeha and Maori.

I would agree it's rude to interrupt the speaker. I think that applies regardless of what language is being spoken or cultural context.

Most conferences I attend start with a mihi. I see it as routine and it holds the same level of interest for me as the welcome in English.

It's unrealistic to expect people to learn things they aren't naturally interested in. Motivation is required for learning to occur. If interest is lacking, then throat-ramming and condemnation won't create it. More likely it will create entrenched opposition.

Mike

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Starlith

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#2024706 29-May-2018 12:46

MikeAqua:

Starlith:

The mihi is an introduction of sorts to a meeting. We as Maori go out of our way to learn English and customs, I would like there to be the same effort from Pakeha as I have seen from the younger generation and my partner but there is a refusal of some and many excuses along the way.

I suggest to many that outright refuse to learn the culture of Maori for many excuses or personal reasons to check yourself. I was never bitter at not knowing what they were saying at the Marae when I was young but I was respectful and learned to not interrupt during a speech and asked what I could do to best understand.

We are all on the same boat, we need to build bridges together and we need to learn about each other more and be open to both worlds of Pakeha and Maori.

I would agree it's rude to interrupt the speaker. I think that applies regardless of what language is being spoken or cultural context.

Most conferences I attend start with a mihi. I see it as routine and it holds the same level of interest for me as the welcome in English.

It's unrealistic to expect people to learn things they aren't naturally interested in. Motivation is required for learning to occur. If interest is lacking, then throat-ramming and condemnation won't create it. More likely it will create entrenched opposition.

You are right that it is unrealistic, but there is no quick fix to instil motivation for any subject that an individual lacks interest in.

Much like having to do chores when you were kid or having to do boring homework, we must understand each other so we can work together. If you really don't want to work together and refuse to do the chores than that says more about yourself than of others.

My parents were throat-rammed English at a young age and my mother beaten when she was girl for it, it was the way it was I'm not saying it was right though.

But if you have a problem with the way Maori is slowly massaged into society today compared to how it was beaten out in the past it says more about your own character.

No one is forcing you to learn it, but it is being used alot more as the culture is gaining more exposure in the main centres and workplaces.

The rest is your choice whether you support, resist or be a bystander to a one of our 2 cultures in this country. When we understand each other and appreciate both sides of the coin it is beautiful thing that can unite us, especially while singing the national anthem.

MikeAqua

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#2024771 29-May-2018 13:31

Starlith:

But if you have a problem with the way Maori is slowly massaged into society today compared to how it was beaten out in the past it says more about your own character.

No one is forcing you to learn it, but it is being used alot more as the culture is gaining more exposure in the main centres and workplaces.

I don't have problem with that - or a specific desire to see it happen. I don't have a dog in the fight.

I'd rather see Kiwi-English words replaced with Maori ones than American-English ones.

I can understand much more Te Reo than you are perhaps assuming. In a professional capacity I collaborate with Maori people and with organisations deeply rooted in Tikanga all the time.

I do genuinely think Te Reo pronunciation-snobs and Te Reo throat-rammers are doing more harm than good to their own cause. But hey, it is their cause. I'm just a spectator with a general interest in effective strategy.

Ownership and therefore motivation lies with Maori. Duty lies with government.

Mike

Starlith

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#2024827 29-May-2018 14:09

MikeAqua:

Starlith:

But if you have a problem with the way Maori is slowly massaged into society today compared to how it was beaten out in the past it says more about your own character.

No one is forcing you to learn it, but it is being used alot more as the culture is gaining more exposure in the main centres and workplaces.

I don't have problem with that - or a specific desire to see it happen. I don't have a dog in the fight.

I'd rather see Kiwi-English words replaced with Maori ones than American-English ones.

I can understand much more Te Reo than you are perhaps assuming. In a professional capacity I collaborate with Maori people and with organisations deeply rooted in Tikanga all the time.

I do genuinely think Te Reo pronunciation-snobs and Te Reo throat-rammers are doing more harm than good to their own cause. But hey, it is their cause. I'm just a spectator with a general interest in effective strategy.

Ownership and therefore motivation lies with Maori. Duty lies with government.

Apologies if I seem to be overly overly critical. But I assume you and most people on this board are older than me (I'm 30), you can be either Pakeha, Maori or Tauiwi doesn't matter to me.

If you know enough about any language then you would also know that pronouncing a word the wrong way can change it's meaning. By atleast trying to pronounce words properly in any any language it shows you know what your talking about and that you respect the culture.

I understand people are trying to learn and not to discourage them from it but I also see the otherside of the coin in terms of frustration from Maori that it has taken this long in peoples lives yet they still cannot pronounce Maori names properly. As I said two sides of the same coin, I got no fix for that.

My partner is finally starting to pronounce Maori words properly and I never gave her grief for it over the 7 years we have been together only this year now that she has an interest to learn is when I hold her to account and start rubbing it in, but for light hearted fun.

I'm not a fluent speaker of Te Reo but I still try and engage and learn when I am within the culture I can atleast pronounce the words (in a modern way) though it is not easy to learn a language when there is little to no environment to immerse yourself in it.

I can speak a bit of Spanish too as I spent 6 months in Latin America and became immersed within their culture to be able to speak it confidently.

I show compassion for both sides Pakeha and Maori as well as criticism, actions from the past have lead us here it could be better or worse but we need to keep working together and share the baggage to make it easier on both.

MikeAqua

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#2024980 29-May-2018 16:28

Starlith:

I understand people are trying to learn and not to discourage them from it but I also see the otherside of the coin in terms of frustration from Maori that it has taken this long in peoples lives yet they still cannot pronounce Maori names properly.

People younger than you didn't necessarily learn to pronounced Maori syllables correctly. We had compulsory Maori language classes at primary school (1980s) but many of the pronunciations we were taught was wrong.

Beyond a certain age it is difficult to pick up new sounds - regardless of the language they come from. Some people can of course pick up new sounds later in life and consequently think it should be easy for anyone else.

The pronunciation snobs IMO come from a place of antipathy toward Pakeha, or at best apathy. Certainly not empathy.

Mike

MikeB4

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#2024993 29-May-2018 16:38

MikeAqua:

Starlith:

I understand people are trying to learn and not to discourage them from it but I also see the otherside of the coin in terms of frustration from Maori that it has taken this long in peoples lives yet they still cannot pronounce Maori names properly.

People younger than you didn't necessarily learn to pronounced Maori syllables correctly. We had compulsory Maori language classes at primary school (1980s) but many of the pronunciations we were taught was wrong.

Beyond a certain age it is difficult to pick up new sounds - regardless of the language they come from. Some people can of course pick up new sounds later in life and consequently think it should be easy for anyone else.

The pronunciation snobs IMO come from a place of antipathy toward Pakeha, or at best apathy. Certainly not empathy.

Pronunciation snobs are present in every language as are the grammar and spelling police. They are a tiresome bunch that is for sure.

MikeAqua

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#2025001 29-May-2018 16:47

MikeB4:

Pronunciation snobs are present in every language as are the grammar and spelling police. They are a tiresome bunch that is for sure.

That is true. But they do seem to be hypersensitive in Te Reo and that hypersensitivity is incompatible with Te Reo's status as an official language.

Mike

frednz

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#2025014 29-May-2018 17:02

Starlith:

frednz:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/104218555/please-speak-in-a-language-99-of-us-understand-racist-remarks-derail-maunga-meeting

From the above:

"Please speak in a language 99 per cent of us here understand," said the person who introduced himself as Simon Clark.

"If I stood here and spoke Cantonese, Mandarin or Eskimo, would anybody stay?"

Hauraki resident Laura Martin said the mihi ended up switching to English half-way through as a result of the bickering, which she said up to 50 people were involved in.

I think this meeting illustrated an important point, which is, that nearly all Maoris understand English well, but only a very few Pakehas understand Maori well.

I guess this situation may change over time, but in the meantime, people need to keep this fact in mind!

First of all it is rude in any language and culture to interrupt the speaker of the meeting.

Second it was only the mihi that is done in Maori the main context of the meeting was done in English it was even stated as such.

The mihi is an introduction of sorts to a meeting. We as Maori go out of our way to learn English and customs, I would like there to be the same effort from Pakeha as I have seen from the younger generation and my partner but there is a refusal of some and many excuses along the way.

I suggest to many that outright refuse to learn the culture of Maori for many excuses or personal reasons to check yourself. I was never bitter at not knowing what they were saying at the Marae when I was young but I was respectful and learned to not interrupt during a speech and asked what I could do to best understand.

We are all on the same boat, we need to build bridges together and we need to learn about each other more and be open to both worlds of Pakeha and Maori. We may not or never be truly as one but we should always look for a way to work together for the benefit of future generations and guardians of the land to work as a team.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, I have also found this link which gives some information about a mihi. I can't understand why the mihi referred to in the "Stuff" story caused a problem at the meeting unless, perhaps, it went on for several minutes during which time most of the audience couldn't understand what was being said? How long would a mihi usually go for?

I guess the information given in the mihi would also be given in English so that those who can't understand te reo wouldn't miss out on anything? If so, I'm sure I wouldn't have objected had I been at the meeting.

I guess the mihi would have been given first and the English introduction second, but if it had been the other way around perhaps there wouldn't have been a problem.

MikeB4

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#2025032 29-May-2018 17:49

MikeAqua:

MikeB4:

Pronunciation snobs are present in every language as are the grammar and spelling police. They are a tiresome bunch that is for sure.

That is true. But they do seem to be hypersensitive in Te Reo and that hypersensitivity is incompatible with Te Reo's status as an official language.

They are very active in France.

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