Importing cleaner cars discounts to New Zealand in December 2021.

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Ultimate Geek

#2279489 19-Jul-2019 10:28

Hybrids have a big advantage over pure petrol from the regenerative braking. In petrol car with start/stop motoring each time you press on the brakes you lose energy. In an electric or a hybrid vehicle you regain some of that energy.

tdgeek

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#2279491 19-Jul-2019 10:38

Varkk:

Hybrids have a big advantage over pure petrol from the regenerative braking. In petrol car with start/stop motoring each time you press on the brakes you lose energy. In an electric or a hybrid vehicle you regain some of that energy.

Thats true, there are pros and cons for ICE, Hybrids and EV's. As far as this thread is concerned, Hybrids are affordable, so any push for green cars will see Hybrids at the head of the pack, thats my prediction

I gather there are various options? And are they up there with the latest tech features?

Is this summary correct?

A full ICE with a full EV. Uses EV till battery runs out. ICE would assist EV on hills etc?

An EV as sole drive with ICE there just for charging

Is that the two variants?

Dingbatt

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#2279509 19-Jul-2019 11:14

tdgeek:
Dingbatt: Hate to bring facts into it, but our Camry Hybrid does better real world gas mileage than our Swift. I can’t understand people when they say “tax all petrol cars”, tax makes up a dollar in the cost of every litre. Use more, pay more.

What happens when after 50km the battery is out? Id expect a hybrid to use less gas if you can manage the battery most of the time. But if you are going on a 50km + trip, or running around all day, then the Swift at a lower mpg would do better. It isnt a Swift vs Hybrid issue, its that if they use gas they are simolar and should be treated similar as they both emit CO2, but they are lower emission vehicles

The Camry is a Full Hybrid not a plug-in, so 50km is irrelevant. The mileage is averaged over a tank full of gas urban/motorway driving and it beats the Swift hands down. Because it uses an advanced Atkinson cycle engine, even when it's running on petrol it is more efficient because it doesn't have to provide the peak power that an ICE only car's engine does.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

tdgeek

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#2279511 19-Jul-2019 11:19

Dingbatt:
tdgeek:

Dingbatt: Hate to bring facts into it, but our Camry Hybrid does better real world gas mileage than our Swift. I can’t understand people when they say “tax all petrol cars”, tax makes up a dollar in the cost of every litre. Use more, pay more.

What happens when after 50km the battery is out? Id expect a hybrid to use less gas if you can manage the battery most of the time. But if you are going on a 50km + trip, or running around all day, then the Swift at a lower mpg would do better. It isnt a Swift vs Hybrid issue, its that if they use gas they are simolar and should be treated similar as they both emit CO2, but they are lower emission vehicles

The Camry is a Full Hybrid not a plug-in, so 50km is irrelevant. The mileage is averaged over a tank full of gas urban/motorway driving and it beats the Swift hands down. Because it uses an advanced Atkinson cycle engine, even when it's running on petrol it is more efficient because it doesn't have to provide the peak power that an ICE only car's engine does.

Ah. So it runs primarily on EV, charged by the ICE? But the ICE can assist drive as well? Is it like front EV and rear ICE?

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#2279513 19-Jul-2019 11:24

Just looked online, looks good, I'll let you fill in the gaps for me, as to how the EV and ICE work together

Dingbatt

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#2279516 19-Jul-2019 11:34

tdgeek:
[
Ah. So it runs primarily on EV, charged by the ICE? But the ICE can assist drive as well? Is it like front EV and rear ICE?

No. You shouldn't think of it as an EV at all. It is an efficient petrol vehicle. All of its motive power comes from the petrol tank.
Search; Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive.
Honda initially released a hybrid system called Integrated Motor Assist, which was basically a weak ICE which used an electric motor to boost it. So the ICE ran all the time. The new gen Hondas (not available new in NZ by the way, shame on you Honda) are electric drive with an ICE powered generator and direct coupling of the ICE only at motorway speeds.
While Toyota Full Hybrids (self charging to use their marketing BS) will try to run on battery initially, the ICE cuts in when either the speed gets too great, or the small battery is depleted.

I agree hybrids are a step in the right direction and as such the government is right to promote them.

Edit: ^ Partially answered as I was composing.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

tdgeek

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#2279521 19-Jul-2019 11:44

Dingbatt:
tdgeek:

[

Ah. So it runs primarily on EV, charged by the ICE? But the ICE can assist drive as well? Is it like front EV and rear ICE?

No. You shouldn't think of it as an EV at all. It is an efficient petrol vehicle. All of its motive power comes from the petrol tank.
Search; Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive.
Honda initially released a hybrid system called Integrated Motor Assist, which was basically a weak ICE which used an electric motor to boost it. So the ICE ran all the time. The new gen Hondas (not available new in NZ by the way, shame on you Honda) are electric drive with an ICE powered generator and direct coupling of the ICE only at motorway speeds.
While Toyota Full Hybrids (self charging to use their marketing BS) will try to run on battery initially, the ICE cuts in when either the speed gets too great, or the small battery is depleted.

I agree hybrids are a step in the right direction and as such the government is right to promote them.

Edit: ^ Partially answered as I was composing.

Fascinating. Others might like to read this too https://blog.toyota.co.uk/how-does-toyota-hybrid-synergy-drive-work

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Dingbatt

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#2279535 19-Jul-2019 12:38

frednz:
But, I suppose it takes a lot of careful research and consultation to implement a policy like this, so we shouldn't be too hard on the poor old Greens. Now, at least we all know that if you're buying an EV you're not going to get a discount this year or next year.

Bit like the oil and gas exploration ban really.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

wsnz

649 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2279872 19-Jul-2019 21:28

Dingbatt:

No. You shouldn't think of it as an EV at all. It is an efficient petrol vehicle. All of its motive power comes from the petrol tank.
Search; Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive.
Honda initially released a hybrid system called Integrated Motor Assist, which was basically a weak ICE which used an electric motor to boost it. So the ICE ran all the time. The new gen Hondas (not available new in NZ by the way, shame on you Honda) are electric drive with an ICE powered generator and direct coupling of the ICE only at motorway speeds.
While Toyota Full Hybrids (self charging to use their marketing BS) will try to run on battery initially, the ICE cuts in when either the speed gets too great, or the small battery is depleted.

After the IMA system (which you’ve explained very well above), came the I-DSD and I-MMD systems.

The Honda I-DSD is more akin to the system used in the Prius Hybrid (non-PHEV versions), but provides better fuel economy through the use of a conventional gearbox with dual clutches and a number of other tweaks to the engine and electric motor. These can run a several Km in pure EV mode before the ICE engages which, along with the regenerative braking system, charges the battery. The electric motor can also provide assistance to the ICE engine when required.

The Honda I-MMD is a newer, much lighter variant that can power the electric motor directly from the ICE (in a similar fashion to a diesel-electric train), recharge the battery via the ICE/regen braking, work in conjunction with the electric motor (like the old IMA system), or provide motive force via the electric motor and battery alone.

Honda NZ & AU chose not provide an I-DCD/I-MMD option quite deliberatly due to the hybrid market conditions at the time, and because of supply issues in the source country for our new vehicles (predominantly Thailand/Malaysia).

I can tell you from personal experience that the Honda Fit Hybrid (2014+ with I-DCD) can obtain 2.8L /100KM in an urban environment with its 1.5L engine.

kingdragonfly

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#2279939 20-Jul-2019 07:25

I know Scotty Kilmer is not popular, because of his anti-EV/anti-hybrid bias.

However I'm sure everyone has noticed that Prius is popular with taxi and Uber drivers.

Here Scotty explains why he thinks Prius is good for commercial usage. At the end, he gives a reluctant recommendation that EV's are better for most people

frednz

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#2279969 20-Jul-2019 09:27

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/114245123/govt-wades-deep-in-nats-territory-to-defend-evs-policy-takes-explaining-is-losing-to-new-level

From the above:

If the Government's plan to defend its Electric Vehicle "feebate" scheme is to individually respond to comments on National Party Facebook pages, they're nailing it.

It seems that for all the planning that took place to announce it with maximum coverage, apparently far less thought was given to how to defend it.

This has left Associate Transport Minister Julie Anne Genter seemingly with no other choice but to stoically dive deep into the heart of Opposition online territory as the last bastion of defence against misplaced skepticism of Government policy...

...

Either way, the level of hyper defensiveness leaves the impression the Government is not confident the scheme can hold its own.

It's extremely likely the Government - specifically the Green branch of it - genuinely thought there was no critique to be had.

I think it's rather good that Julie is prepared to debate the feebate scheme on social media, even if this does leave an impression that the Government isn't confident that the scheme will succeed.

tdgeek

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#2280076 20-Jul-2019 10:40

wsnz:

Dingbatt:

No. You shouldn't think of it as an EV at all. It is an efficient petrol vehicle. All of its motive power comes from the petrol tank.
Search; Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive.
Honda initially released a hybrid system called Integrated Motor Assist, which was basically a weak ICE which used an electric motor to boost it. So the ICE ran all the time. The new gen Hondas (not available new in NZ by the way, shame on you Honda) are electric drive with an ICE powered generator and direct coupling of the ICE only at motorway speeds.
While Toyota Full Hybrids (self charging to use their marketing BS) will try to run on battery initially, the ICE cuts in when either the speed gets too great, or the small battery is depleted.

After the IMA system (which you’ve explained very well above), came the I-DSD and I-MMD systems.

The Honda I-DSD is more akin to the system used in the Prius Hybrid (non-PHEV versions), but provides better fuel economy through the use of a conventional gearbox with dual clutches and a number of other tweaks to the engine and electric motor. These can run a several Km in pure EV mode before the ICE engages which, along with the regenerative braking system, charges the battery. The electric motor can also provide assistance to the ICE engine when required.

The Honda I-MMD is a newer, much lighter variant that can power the electric motor directly from the ICE (in a similar fashion to a diesel-electric train), recharge the battery via the ICE/regen braking, work in conjunction with the electric motor (like the old IMA system), or provide motive force via the electric motor and battery alone.

Honda NZ & AU chose not provide an I-DCD/I-MMD option quite deliberatly due to the hybrid market conditions at the time, and because of supply issues in the source country for our new vehicles (predominantly Thailand/Malaysia).

I can tell you from personal experience that the Honda Fit Hybrid (2014+ with I-DCD) can obtain 2.8L /100KM in an urban environment with its 1.5L engine.

Thats amazing. I calculated my 656cc motorbike economy years ago, I think it was about 3.5L / 100Km 4 around town. Thats a bike wth less than half the engine cc and that weighs just 219kg wet.

tdgeek

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#2280079 20-Jul-2019 10:47

frednz:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/114245123/govt-wades-deep-in-nats-territory-to-defend-evs-policy-takes-explaining-is-losing-to-new-level

From the above:

If the Government's plan to defend its Electric Vehicle "feebate" scheme is to individually respond to comments on National Party Facebook pages, they're nailing it.

It seems that for all the planning that took place to announce it with maximum coverage, apparently far less thought was given to how to defend it.

This has left Associate Transport Minister Julie Anne Genter seemingly with no other choice but to stoically dive deep into the heart of Opposition online territory as the last bastion of defence against misplaced skepticism of Government policy...

...

Either way, the level of hyper defensiveness leaves the impression the Government is not confident the scheme can hold its own.

It's extremely likely the Government - specifically the Green branch of it - genuinely thought there was no critique to be had.

I think it's rather good that Julie is prepared to debate the feebate scheme on social media, even if this does leave an impression that the Government isn't confident that the scheme will succeed.

Its hard to know. If she defends the policy, that's normal. To defend it on their social media isn't normal. Either she is defending a dumb policy, and if so, why do that on their social media? Or she believes in it, so defends what she truly believes in. National doesn't seem to have a policy, so its a bit rich on them, basically bagging it by default, with no superior solution. IMHO, this is a non partisan issue, but as its such a key issue that is highly topical, it becomes political fodder to make hay with or criticise. At least something is going to happen.

kingdragonfly

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#2280292 20-Jul-2019 15:41

California has a complex Low-Emission Vehicle Program. (the "California Air Resources Board")

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Air_Resources_Board#Low-Emission_Vehicle_Program

This video explains why the BMW i3 with a range extender is the only one that meets California's "range-extended battery-electric vehicle", BEVx, standard.

kingdragonfly

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#2280335 20-Jul-2019 16:00

Here's What Makes the 2019 Toyota Prius AWD-e Surprisingly Great - And Where it Suffers

TFLnow

Nathan takes you on a tour of the 2019 Toyota Prius AWD-E to show you why it is a surprisingly good car, even if it does have a few flaws.

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