Kia Ora: Should this be used in official Government correspondence?

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Starlith

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#2025038 29-May-2018 17:58

MikeB4:

MikeAqua:

MikeB4:

Pronunciation snobs are present in every language as are the grammar and spelling police. They are a tiresome bunch that is for sure.

That is true. But they do seem to be hypersensitive in Te Reo and that hypersensitivity is incompatible with Te Reo's status as an official language.

They are very active in France.

Even in the Maori culture we have our own pronunciation/word use biggots but that is usually just banter between the different Te Reo dialects around the country which are getting phased out by the modern way Te Reo is pronounced and used.

dejadeadnz

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#2025115 29-May-2018 20:28

MikeB4:

Pronunciation snobs are present in every language as are the grammar and spelling police. They are a tiresome bunch that is for sure.

I agree that there's no need to be pointlessly judgemental over minor mistakes. But some of the routine displays of basic failures to understand and use simple English and Maori properly (e.g. Pronouncing "Tau" in Moari like "Towel" or failing to use the apostrophe properly in English) are both extraordinarily annoying and highly revealing of the stupidity of the individuals concerned.

MikeB4

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#2025186 29-May-2018 21:31

dejadeadnz:

MikeB4:

Pronunciation snobs are present in every language as are the grammar and spelling police. They are a tiresome bunch that is for sure.

I agree that there's no need to be pointlessly judgemental over minor mistakes. But some of the routine displays of basic failures to understand and use simple English and Maori properly (e.g. Pronouncing "Tau" in Moari like "Towel" or failing to use the apostrophe properly in English) are both extraordinarily annoying and highly revealing of the stupidity of the individuals concerned.

Specific learning difficulties span cultures and languages and do not reveal stupidity but disability. Also people are not infallible and make mistakes.

MikeAqua

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#2029813 5-Jun-2018 13:41

People are also lazy with language.

I read this somewhere once: do not attribute to malice, that which is adequately explained by incompetence.

I find if I apply that lens to people's behaviour, it explains a lot.

Mike

MikeAqua

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#2029814 5-Jun-2018 13:41

People are also lazy with language.

I read this somewhere once: do not attribute to malice, that which is adequately explained by incompetence.

I find if I apply that lens to people's behaviour, it explains a lot.

Mike

Kyanar

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#2029834 5-Jun-2018 14:04

dejadeadnz:

I agree that there's no need to be pointlessly judgemental over minor mistakes. But some of the routine displays of basic failures to understand and use simple English and Maori properly (e.g. Pronouncing "Tau" in Moari like "Towel" or failing to use the apostrophe properly in English) are both extraordinarily annoying and highly revealing of the stupidity of the individuals concerned.

It's taking it a bit far to dismiss as stupidity that people are mispronouncing words like Taupo when there is such widespread misunderstanding that almost inevitably a person is going to learn the pronunciation of the word from some out else who pronounces it wrong. I mean, you'd consider it pretty offensive if I called you stupid for pronouncing the very word "pronunciation" incorrectly (as I can imagine you almost certainly pronounce it pro-NOUN-see-aysh-on versus pruh-nun-see-ay-shun) so to call people stupid for pronouncing Taupo "tou-poe" (versus the correct tow-poor, or however you'd represent that phonetically) when that's how they naturally interpret that sequence of characters in their native tongue is incredibly intolerant, pointlessly judgmental, and really says more about you than them.

JimmyH

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#2030032 5-Jun-2018 19:21

Kyanar:

[...] so to call people stupid for pronouncing Taupo "tou-poe" (versus the correct tow-poor, or however you'd represent that phonetically) [...]

Lately, Radio NZ seem to have taken to pronouncing it as "Torpor".

I think people are a bit too precious over the whole pronunciation thing. To the ears of native speakers, non-native speakers of a language invariably butcher pronunciation somewhat - be it of French, English, Mandarin, Japanese, Maori or whatever. Plus, pronunciation of all languages tends to change over time, despite the efforts of purists and zealots to them in a time warp. Just listen to English on the BBC now compared to the 1940s, and I doubt an academic trying to speak Latin (which they read and write very well) would even be intelligible if they were teleported back to ancient Rome, and neither would a modern gaelic speaker transported back to the time Caesar landed in Briton. Languages evolve to suite the needs and foibles of current users, and they always will.

Regrettably, some of the more aggressive bagging of people over pronunciation in the media recently seems to have taken on a bit of a bullying flavour.

Edit: Typo

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MikeAqua

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#2031269 7-Jun-2018 09:59

JimmyH:

Kyanar:

[...] so to call people stupid for pronouncing Taupo "tou-poe" (versus the correct tow-poor, or however you'd represent that phonetically) [...]

Lately, Radio NZ seem to have taken to pronouncing it as "Torpor".

The pronunciation by Te Reo speakers has noticeably shifted over the last 20 years or so.

Mike

Kyanar

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#2032731 9-Jun-2018 20:34

MikeAqua:

The pronunciation by Te Reo speakers has noticeably shifted over the last 20 years or so.

Indeed. But according to some in this thread, we're stupid if we don't know the current One True Pronunciation.

Geektastic

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#2032742 9-Jun-2018 21:05

Kyanar:
dejadeadnz:

I agree that there's no need to be pointlessly judgemental over minor mistakes. But some of the routine displays of basic failures to understand and use simple English and Maori properly (e.g. Pronouncing "Tau" in Moari like "Towel" or failing to use the apostrophe properly in English) are both extraordinarily annoying and highly revealing of the stupidity of the individuals concerned.

It's taking it a bit far to dismiss as stupidity that people are mispronouncing words like Taupo when there is such widespread misunderstanding that almost inevitably a person is going to learn the pronunciation of the word from some out else who pronounces it wrong. I mean, you'd consider it pretty offensive if I called you stupid for pronouncing the very word "pronunciation" incorrectly (as I can imagine you almost certainly pronounce it pro-NOUN-see-aysh-on versus pruh-nun-see-ay-shun) so to call people stupid for pronouncing Taupo "tou-poe" (versus the correct tow-poor, or however you'd represent that phonetically) when that's how they naturally interpret that sequence of characters in their native tongue is incredibly intolerant, pointlessly judgmental, and really says more about you than them.

If I got offended over how badly English is pronounced by Maori and Pakeha alike, I'd be permanently offended all day every day!

MikeB4

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#2032748 9-Jun-2018 21:12

So many things can influence pronunciation such as ethnicity, hearing loss, health, learning disorders to name a few. It's what is said not how it is said.

MikeAqua

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#2033642 11-Jun-2018 13:03

Geektastic:

If I got offended over how badly English is pronounced by Maori and Pakeha alike, I'd be permanently offended all day every day!

But what dialect of English do you use as the standard?

Within Britain Isles, or even just England, there are many dialects to choose from.

Every English speaking country has it's own dialect. Many (most?) have more than one.

Mike

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