Welcome to a new era of industrial action. Same as the last one.

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Awrrr
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#2043855 25-Jun-2018 23:58

I genuinely believe that most (nearly all) of the contributors to this thread simply cannot abide the thought of any government of the left. The rest just derives from that.

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Aredwood

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#2043859 26-Jun-2018 02:19

Geektastic:

Handle9:

6FIEND:

BTW @Handle9 - feel free to start your own thread about Public Service salaries if you so desire.

However - from the State Services Commission's Public Service Workforce Data Report

The HRC survey provides information on the base salaries of staff in the Public Service as at 30 June
each year. In 2017, the average annual salary was $75,416, an increase of 2.3% from the previous year.

Contrast with Statistics NZ's data source, showing a 2017 Average Weekly income of $1,118 (annual salary $58,136) across both sectors...

There's a $17,280 premium for the public service - 29.7% greater than the national average.

It's far from "junk data".

So to compare a teacher or a nurse's salary to that over a cleaner is a valid comparison? IMO that is nonsense.

Look at the numbers in the report you linked to: the roles listed are largely professional roles. These should be relatively well paid compared to unskilled manual roles.

If there is evidence that shows generally public service IT workers are paid 25% more than in the private sector then that would be meaningful. The 29.7% number you are quoting is just clickbait.

Personally I believe that most people in the public and private sectors work hard. There are plenty of exceptions but I don't believe that most people working in public sector roles are lazy. That hasn't been my experience.

I'm not the target demo for being overly sympathetic to unions (senior manager in a large multinational corporation) but the hysteria and attacks on people who are doing their best and trying to get a better deal is over the top.

If you are a public servant, going on strike and inconveniencing the people who pay your salary is not really, IMO, a sensible way to try and get a "better deal"...

Simple - The public service is not subject to market forces. Imagine if the ministry of health would face large budget cuts if not enough nurses were employed to provide proper hospital care. Or the ministry of education would face budget cuts for not employing enough teachers. If that were the case - they would both increase nurse and teacher wages to whatever necessary, to ensure that there would be sufficient numbers of teachers and nurses.

If you look at say fast food. If Mc Donalds doesn't pay their workers enough, they will leave, service levels would drop, customers would just go to burger king or KFC instead. And Mc Donalds would quickly find themselves with no business. Back when I worked there, I got paid approx 10% more than the min wage. Not bad for a teenager with no qualifications at the time.

But look at Teaching and Nursing. The managers are not affected by poor service levels, the "customers" have little choice to go elsewhere, the staff don't have many other available employers to choose from. So the government and the managers who actually control where the funding goes to. Have no incentive to ensure that market wages are actually paid.

Instead, the government declares that there is a skills shortage in nursing and teaching. Which is just an excuse to let in more immigrants. Both sides have allowed excessively high immigration for too long. So no surprises that wages have not been rising enough. And because the governments are controlling wages for sectors such as Teachers and Nurses. They are not directly affected by things such as rising house prices and rents.

If the government was directly affected. They would quickly change the resource management act. And threaten the local councils with law changes. If they don't make more land available for housing, and remove red tape that gets in the way of housing. As it would be cheaper for the government to lower living costs, instead of being forced to pay Nurses and Teachers more.

We already have the remuneration Authority. Which sets politicians wages among other things. Make them responsible for figuring out and setting market rates for Teachers and Nurses. The health boards, Ministry of education etc will complain, but tough. They will just have to keep better control of their back office costs to meet the wages. And they can then lobby other government departments to get living costs lowered. Im sure that Mc Donalds didn't want to pay me more than the min wage, but they had no choice. As they needed workers for their business to operate. And even then, I still left that job, got an apprenticeship, became a qualified plumber. And then guess what - I ended up doing plumbing work for a Mc Donalds store. They would have been paying my then boss almost $100 per hour. But again, they had no choice. It was either pay market rates, or no work would get done.

Geektastic

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#2043888 26-Jun-2018 08:12

Rikkitic:
I genuinely believe that most (nearly all) of the contributors to this thread simply cannot abide the thought of any government of the left. The rest just derives from that.

I don't see your point? What sensible person would want a government from the left?

Geektastic

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#2043889 26-Jun-2018 08:14

DaveB:
Geektastic: "More than 4000 Inland Revenue Department and Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment staff will go on strike next month."

Today's Herald.

IRD? REALLY? I can't get through to the pricklies at the best of times.

If you want to know something really ironic, did you know that they call us cash cows "customers"?!

I would think "resources" would be more accurate.

Lias

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#2043892 26-Jun-2018 08:32

Aredwood:

But look at Teaching and Nursing. The managers are not affected by poor service levels, the "customers" have little choice to go elsewhere, the staff don't have many other available employers to choose from.

There absolutely is choice.. We have dozens of private hospitals and hundreds if not thousands of private schools.

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Varkk

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#2043900 26-Jun-2018 08:55

Lias:

MikeB4:

Do you also believe that lockout is also blackmailing?

No, I think it's piss weak and not nearly good enough that all they can do is lock them out. Threatening to strike should be grounds for instant dismissal. If workers don't like their jobs, they should look for better ones. If they are unable to get a better job, it's probably because they are the useless deadwood that others are carrying.

They are getting better jobs. There is a big shortage of teachers and nurses all over NZ. It is also going to get much worse in the next few years as a large number of 'boomer' generation retire. Most of the PPTA demands are actually about attracting fresh graduates in to the profession and to hold on to those who may otherwise leave shortly. There is a shocking number of people who get a teaching degree, work for a year or two and then leave. Most of the concern is over non-classroom workload rather than remuneration.

Wiggum

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#2043902 26-Jun-2018 08:58

Aredwood:

Simple - The public service is not subject to market forces. Imagine if the ministry of health would face large budget cuts if not enough nurses were employed to provide proper hospital care. Or the ministry of education would face budget cuts for not employing enough teachers. If that were the case - they would both increase nurse and teacher wages to whatever necessary, to ensure that there would be sufficient numbers of teachers and nurses.

If you look at say fast food. If Mc Donalds doesn't pay their workers enough, they will leave, service levels would drop, customers would just go to burger king or KFC instead. And Mc Donalds would quickly find themselves with no business. Back when I worked there, I got paid approx 10% more than the min wage. Not bad for a teenager with no qualifications at the time.

But look at Teaching and Nursing. The managers are not affected by poor service levels, the "customers" have little choice to go elsewhere, the staff don't have many other available employers to choose from. So the government and the managers who actually control where the funding goes to. Have no incentive to ensure that market wages are actually paid.

Instead, the government declares that there is a skills shortage in nursing and teaching. Which is just an excuse to let in more immigrants. Both sides have allowed excessively high immigration for too long. So no surprises that wages have not been rising enough. And because the governments are controlling wages for sectors such as Teachers and Nurses. They are not directly affected by things such as rising house prices and rents.

If the government was directly affected. They would quickly change the resource management act. And threaten the local councils with law changes. If they don't make more land available for housing, and remove red tape that gets in the way of housing. As it would be cheaper for the government to lower living costs, instead of being forced to pay Nurses and Teachers more.

We already have the remuneration Authority. Which sets politicians wages among other things. Make them responsible for figuring out and setting market rates for Teachers and Nurses. The health boards, Ministry of education etc will complain, but tough. They will just have to keep better control of their back office costs to meet the wages. And they can then lobby other government departments to get living costs lowered. Im sure that Mc Donalds didn't want to pay me more than the min wage, but they had no choice. As they needed workers for their business to operate. And even then, I still left that job, got an apprenticeship, became a qualified plumber. And then guess what - I ended up doing plumbing work for a Mc Donalds store. They would have been paying my then boss almost $100 per hour. But again, they had no choice. It was either pay market rates, or no work would get done.

Perfect summary of what happens when social services are taken too far. Personally I favor a private health care system (improved facilities, shorter wait times, unaffected by strikes), a system controlled by a free market, and not government. Each person needs to look after themselves and their own family by having sufficient health insurance etc.. Less government intervention the better.

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Lias

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#2043919 26-Jun-2018 09:25

Wiggum:

Perfect summary of what happens when social services are taken too far. Personally I favor a private health care system (improved facilities, shorter wait times, unaffected by strikes), a system controlled by a free market, and not government. Each person needs to look after themselves and their own family by having sufficient health insurance etc.. Less government intervention the better.

gulfa

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#2043928 26-Jun-2018 09:36

I agree. Personal responsibility is the key but how do we get to this stage.

It has to be (and I go on and on) through education. This should be a long term goal of any political party but in the meantime we have to deal with the daily problems of our communities. we all should be demanding that the education system change. There are many educators out there who have the same philosophy but huge classes restrict what they can do. You only have to have one disruptive pupil in a class and this becomes a huge distraction and time waster. All students want to learn and we just need to adjust what we are teaching to cater for their needs so they develop skills and attitude. Todays technology should make this easier. Look at the claimed success Charter Schools say they are having. Why? Smaller classes, finding out about students interests, more individual attention. Why should these Charter schools have smaller classes surely all students deserve this right.

Handle9

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#2043934 26-Jun-2018 09:43

Lias:

Wiggum:

Perfect summary of what happens when social services are taken too far. Personally I favor a private health care system (improved facilities, shorter wait times, unaffected by strikes), a system controlled by a free market, and not government. Each person needs to look after themselves and their own family by having sufficient health insurance etc.. Less government intervention the better.

+1

That all sounds fine and dandy however the evidence suggests that a totally private health system provides average care at incredibly expensive prices. The US is a great example of this.

A free market only works with competition. Due to the capital investment required it is very difficult to have a truly competitive health system. Socialised or blended health systems generally provide more efficient outcomes.

Handle9

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#2043935 26-Jun-2018 09:46

Lias:

Aredwood:

But look at Teaching and Nursing. The managers are not affected by poor service levels, the "customers" have little choice to go elsewhere, the staff don't have many other available employers to choose from.

There absolutely is choice.. We have dozens of private hospitals and hundreds if not thousands of private schools.

There are over 2500 schools in NZ. 89 of them are private. There is no real choice in employers.

https://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/data-services/directories/private-schools

https://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/statistics/schooling/number-of-schools

Rikkitic

Awrrr
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#2043970 26-Jun-2018 10:24

Handle9:

That all sounds fine and dandy however the evidence suggests that a totally private health system provides average care at incredibly expensive prices. The US is a great example of this.

A free market only works with competition. Due to the capital investment required it is very difficult to have a truly competitive health system. Socialised or blended health systems generally provide more efficient outcomes.

I haven't researched this, but it would be interesting to compare the quality of the American health system against that of Canada. I know drugs are much cheaper in Canada and I wonder if other aspects of the health care system there are also better. That might offer an answer to free market vs socialised or blended.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Wiggum

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#2043972 26-Jun-2018 10:25

Handle9:

Lias:

Aredwood:

But look at Teaching and Nursing. The managers are not affected by poor service levels, the "customers" have little choice to go elsewhere, the staff don't have many other available employers to choose from.

There absolutely is choice.. We have dozens of private hospitals and hundreds if not thousands of private schools.

There are over 2500 schools in NZ. 89 of them are private. There is no real choice in employers.

https://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/data-services/directories/private-schools

https://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/statistics/schooling/number-of-schools

And labour wants to shut the charter schools down....

Varkk

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#2043979 26-Jun-2018 10:35

They don't, don't spread lies

Pumpedd

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#2043991 26-Jun-2018 11:03

Rikkitic:

I genuinely believe that most (nearly all) of the contributors to this thread simply cannot abide the thought of any government of the left. The rest just derives from that.

What a load of tripe. I genuinely believe you cannot abide by the thought of any government to the right.

Your point is lost on me as well.

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