New centrist green party?

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#2173529 5-Feb-2019 15:32

Rikkitic:

People made it to the moon, several times, using 1960s technology because there was an all-out, no expenses spared, effort to do so before the Soviets got there first. Huge risks were taken, and limitless amounts of money were spent.

A comparable, though less well-known, engineering feat was the Delta Works project of the Dutch. Devastating floods in 1953 did so much damage, and created so much shock, that an all-out undertaking to ensure that such a thing could never happen again led to a massive, multi-generational commitment to invent, design, and construct a system of dykes and enormous movable barriers to protect the southwest of the country.

Here in l'il o'l New Zealand, there is no will to do anything like that. Life is too easy for too many people. No-one wants to spend the money. The politicians are too timid. So instead we diddle around poking mud with a stick and telling each other it is too hard.

An all or nothing national commitment to an Apollo or Delta Works-style project would fix this. More dams may or may not be the best solution, but at least we would find out once and for all. Same with more thermal. Instead of stuffing farting cows with artificially boosted clover, the hills would be alive with bio-fuel crops. That technology already works. Just ask Brazil.

Why not wave generation? We certainly have plenty of waves! And more wind, and better battery technology. Electric cars for everyone. Electric everything for everyone. Hell, microwave generation from space. These and many other things are not out of reach. But it's sooo much trouble when instead you can just grab another bunch of low-hanging grapes and recline on your couch and enjoy the view out to sea.

You are right. "She'll be right" conflicts with the famed and true "number 8 wire" mentality

GV27

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#2173552 5-Feb-2019 16:19

Fred99:

GV27:

I think this is the bit that grates most about Green politics; on one hand, it's doom, gloom and everyone must make drastic changes, but on the other it's a total failure to articulate a credible alternative for people already doing it tough that isn't "ride a bike everywhere" or something equally out of touch.

I think it actually is a case of "ride a bike" - but perhaps not that drastic. NZ's private motor car obsession is insane and unsustainable. Catch a bus.

The biggest issue is that the rich consume and pollute the most, and the rich (for the past 30 years or so in particular) always set the dialogue.

Who'd have thought that "the people" would elect an anti-environmentalist schmuck billionaire as President? Yet here we are.

And here in lies the issue: for a bunch of people, who don't get to set their own hours, or live close to rapid transit, "catch a bus" means an extra hour of commuting each way, every day.

We already have some pretty out there depression/suicide issues and we work some stupidly long hours for low wages; tacking an extra 1.5 hours - 2.0 hours to a working day is not only going to come with a huge time value cost, it's would trigger a major social crisis.

These are no less fantastical than metre-high sea level rises but one is treated like an absolute imperative while the quality of life issues most "solutions" offer just get papered over like they don't exist.

clevedon

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#2173555 5-Feb-2019 16:29

Fred99: I think it actually is a case of "ride a bike" - but perhaps not that drastic. NZ's private motor car obsession is insane and unsustainable. Catch a bus.

The biggest issue is that the rich consume and pollute the most, and the rich (for the past 30 years or so in particular) always set the dialogue.

My work is seven km's from home, the closest bus stop is around 20 km's from home.

Don't generalize that public transport is the answer for us all, we will never have public transport where we live - at least in my lifetime.

Fred99

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#2173586 5-Feb-2019 17:34

clevedon:

Fred99: I think it actually is a case of "ride a bike" - but perhaps not that drastic. NZ's private motor car obsession is insane and unsustainable. Catch a bus.

The biggest issue is that the rich consume and pollute the most, and the rich (for the past 30 years or so in particular) always set the dialogue.

My work is seven km's from home, the closest bus stop is around 20 km's from home.

Don't generalize that public transport is the answer for us all, we will never have public transport where we live - at least in my lifetime.

Thanks for the anecdote. The vast majority of people don't have your excuse - they drive cars as a matter of choice.

GV27

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#2173614 5-Feb-2019 18:33

Fred99:

clevedon:

Fred99: I think it actually is a case of "ride a bike" - but perhaps not that drastic. NZ's private motor car obsession is insane and unsustainable. Catch a bus.

The biggest issue is that the rich consume and pollute the most, and the rich (for the past 30 years or so in particular) always set the dialogue.

My work is seven km's from home, the closest bus stop is around 20 km's from home.

Don't generalize that public transport is the answer for us all, we will never have public transport where we live - at least in my lifetime.

Thanks for the anecdote. The vast majority of people don't have your excuse - they drive cars as a matter of choice.

The vast majority of people are cash and time poor, but most are still rational people. If there was a viable alternative to sitting in congestion every day, they'd probably already be doing it.

clevedon

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#2173639 5-Feb-2019 19:47

Fred99:
clevedon:

Fred99: I think it actually is a case of "ride a bike" - but perhaps not that drastic. NZ's private motor car obsession is insane and unsustainable. Catch a bus.

The biggest issue is that the rich consume and pollute the most, and the rich (for the past 30 years or so in particular) always set the dialogue.

My work is seven km's from home, the closest bus stop is around 20 km's from home.

Don't generalize that public transport is the answer for us all, we will never have public transport where we live - at least in my lifetime.

Thanks for the anecdote. The vast majority of people don't have your excuse - they drive cars as a matter of choice.

Excuse me, It aint an excuse - it’s reality.

shk292

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#2173688 5-Feb-2019 20:50

Fred99:

Thanks for the anecdote. The vast majority of people don't have your excuse - they drive cars as a matter of choice.

Do you have any basis - whatsoever - for that assertion? If so, please provide it.

Personally, my commute is 38km each way. On a good day, it's 45 minutes by car; average is 50 min, really bad is 1h05. Quickest public transport option including walking to/from bus stops each end is 2 hours 25 min - and I check this each six months or so.

So using public transport would cost me 3 hours each day on average - call that $200 at a reasonable hourly rate for my salary. I use about 5 litres of petrol per day. So put the price of petrol up to $10 per litre and I might start thinking about public transport - but by then, the roads would be so empty my drive would take 30 minutes.

I know it's "chicken and egg" - but public transport in NZ needs to be a whole lot better to be a realistic option for a huge number of people.

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Fred99

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#2173870 6-Feb-2019 12:06

clevedon:

Excuse me, It aint an excuse - it’s reality.

shk292:

Personally, my commute is 38km each way. On a good day, it's 45 minutes by car; average is 50 min, really bad is 1h05. Quickest public transport option including walking to/from bus stops each end is 2 hours 25 min - and I check this each six months or so.

It's a personal choice.

Aredwood

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#2173899 6-Feb-2019 12:33

shk292:
Fred99:

Thanks for the anecdote. The vast majority of people don't have your excuse - they drive cars as a matter of choice.

Do you have any basis - whatsoever - for that assertion? If so, please provide it.

Personally, my commute is 38km each way. On a good day, it's 45 minutes by car; average is 50 min, really bad is 1h05. Quickest public transport option including walking to/from bus stops each end is 2 hours 25 min - and I check this each six months or so.

So using public transport would cost me 3 hours each day on average - call that $200 at a reasonable hourly rate for my salary. I use about 5 litres of petrol per day. So put the price of petrol up to $10 per litre and I might start thinking about public transport - but by then, the roads would be so empty my drive would take 30 minutes.

I know it's "chicken and egg" - but public transport in NZ needs to be a whole lot better to be a realistic option for a huge number of people.

But if petrol was $10 per L, then most people would just buy EVs. And we would still have the same amount of traffic congestion.

EVs are actually a big problem in relation to public transport. As there are comments on the EV threads from people saying that the cost of driving their EV is far cheaper than taking the bus. And probably better for the environment as well compared to catching a diesel bus.

If you have bad traffic congestion, but the traffic is all EVs that are charged with renewable electricity. Is traffic congestion still a bad thing? As spending money on public transport won't give any environmental benefits. While autonomous vehicles and ride sharing services will mean that public transport won't be needed to help people who can't drive.

The best long term solution might be to scrap all government and council provided public transport. And just build more roads.

Rikkitic

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#2173904 6-Feb-2019 12:41

Aredwood:

The best long term solution might be to scrap all government and council provided public transport. And just build more roads.

No, governments and companies will finally realise that offices are old technology and telecommuting will be embraced in a big way, releasing huge productivity gains through AI, improved efficiency and employee satisfaction. Roads will be seen for the quaint anachronism they are and will be made into parks.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Aredwood

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#2173914 6-Feb-2019 13:02

Rikkitic: Roads will be seen for the quaint anachronism they are and will be made into parks.

I'm unsure if you are actually serious about turning all roads into parks. As you will still need a method of moving goods and people, including over the ”last mile” to every house. Roads will always be needed in 1 form or another. Unless teleportation actually becomes real.

There won't be much of a need for telecommuting, as AI will remove the need for all jobs that consist of someone sitting in front of a computer all day.

Rikkitic

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#2173954 6-Feb-2019 13:16

My serious point is that you are looking backwards to old technology (roads) and extrapolating that into the future. Of course there will always be a need for roads, but there won't be a need for the traffic volumes that currently exist, thus no need for 'more' roads. A lot of the current demand will be met by other technologies. Who is going to bother commuting if there is no workplace to commute to? Yes, there will always still be some jobs that require people to go back and forth, but the volumes will be much less so more room on the roads for those who do have to use them.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

tdgeek

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#2173963 6-Feb-2019 13:49

Commuting isn't the largest use of roads. Drive anywhere after 9am and before 4pm, its still got plenty of traffic. Unless we all stay home permanently, always a huge need for roads.

GV27

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#2173986 6-Feb-2019 14:40

Fred99:

clevedon:

Excuse me, It aint an excuse - it’s reality.

shk292:

Personally, my commute is 38km each way. On a good day, it's 45 minutes by car; average is 50 min, really bad is 1h05. Quickest public transport option including walking to/from bus stops each end is 2 hours 25 min - and I check this each six months or so.

It's a personal choice.

You heard it here first folks, getting up and going to work in a capitalist system is a 'personal choice'.

Thanks for proving my point about the smug dismissiveness of mandatory PT advocates though.

Fred99

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#2173994 6-Feb-2019 14:54

GV27:

Fred99:

clevedon:

Excuse me, It aint an excuse - it’s reality.

shk292:

Personally, my commute is 38km each way. On a good day, it's 45 minutes by car; average is 50 min, really bad is 1h05. Quickest public transport option including walking to/from bus stops each end is 2 hours 25 min - and I check this each six months or so.

It's a personal choice.

You heard it here first folks, getting up and going to work in a capitalist system is a 'personal choice'.

Thanks for proving my point about the smug dismissiveness of mandatory PT advocates though.

It's your lifestyle choice to live 38km from your place of work, with no public transport servicing the route.

Show me how someone or some higher authority is "holding a gun to your head" forcing you to live your life in such an unpleasant and environmentally irresponsible way.

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