Importing cleaner cars discounts to New Zealand in December 2021.

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Forums › Politics › Importing cleaner cars discounts to New Zealand in December 2021.

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frednz

1467 posts

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#2291199 6-Aug-2019 20:46

Obraik:

The problem with the National parties opposition of the tax is that they then expect ALL tax payers to fund the EV subsidy. What seems fairer - those who are creating the emissions pay for those emissions OR everyone pays towards an EV subsidy? To me it seems only fair that those who are creating emissions pay for it.

As for the last part, there's a limit on how much power we can generate from coal - 5% of the total grid capacity. Of course, this is assuming the renewable grid doesn't grow to keep up with the demand as the EV numbers gradually grow. Of course, even if the grid was 100% non-renewable powered it an EV would still create less emissions than a ICE vehicle so that last statement in the quote is BS too.

Although this has been mentioned heaps of times before, I think the subsidy could simply be the removal of GST on EVs (but not on small petrol vehicles such as the Suzuki Swift).

As to whether the renewable grid can keep up with demand, this article may be of interest:

https://www.interest.co.nz/business/97731/make-nzs-future-energy-supply-called-question-unprecedented-gas-and-hydro-shortages

From the above:

Genesis Energy’s reliance on coal at the end of last year (2018) is again putting the debate around how New Zealand will generate energy in the future on the table.

The company reports it generated 512 gigawatt-hours of energy using coal in the December quarter – a 155% increase from the same period the previous year and the most since the June 2013 quarter.

In fact, coal was behind 32% of the energy it generated in the December quarter.

Genesis says, the “unprecedented” gas and hydro shortage at the end of last year saw it run two dual fuel Rankine units at Huntly on coal for long periods.

Dry weather also saw hydro storage levels hit rock bottom; the cumulation of events forcing Genesis to import coal from Indonesia.

And the use of natural gas for electricity generation doesn't often get a mention, and even though not as bad as coal for the environment, this certainly needs to be taken into account.

So, if you double or triple the number of EVs that need to be charged up during times of gas and hydro shortage, who can say with any certainty that we won't again be importing coal from overseas to generate the required electricity?

Obraik

2123 posts

Uber Geek

#2291204 6-Aug-2019 21:02

tdgeek:

Obraik:

One doesn't have to buy an EV to avoid the extra tax on a vehicle. There are plenty of cheap, non-EV vehicles that either won't have any tax applied to them or will even have a subsidy applied to them.

But that has been criticised here. As was any use of FF.Now recent posts tell us the electricity generation by FF is actually very cool? WE all want green but some of you guys are a moving target.

I'm not debating whether I'm for or against that, but that's what the government has proposed. So given that's how it's going to be, the point that one is being forced into paying extra tax on the new vehicle they buy or that they're being forced to buy an EV isn't valid.

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Obraik

2123 posts

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#2291210 6-Aug-2019 21:06

frednz:

Obraik:

The problem with the National parties opposition of the tax is that they then expect ALL tax payers to fund the EV subsidy. What seems fairer - those who are creating the emissions pay for those emissions OR everyone pays towards an EV subsidy? To me it seems only fair that those who are creating emissions pay for it.

As for the last part, there's a limit on how much power we can generate from coal - 5% of the total grid capacity. Of course, this is assuming the renewable grid doesn't grow to keep up with the demand as the EV numbers gradually grow. Of course, even if the grid was 100% non-renewable powered it an EV would still create less emissions than a ICE vehicle so that last statement in the quote is BS too.

Although this has been mentioned heaps of times before, I think the subsidy could simply be the removal of GST on EVs (but not on small petrol vehicles such as the Suzuki Swift).

As to whether the renewable grid can keep up with demand, this article may be of interest:

https://www.interest.co.nz/business/97731/make-nzs-future-energy-supply-called-question-unprecedented-gas-and-hydro-shortages

From the above:

Genesis Energy’s reliance on coal at the end of last year (2018) is again putting the debate around how New Zealand will generate energy in the future on the table.

The company reports it generated 512 gigawatt-hours of energy using coal in the December quarter – a 155% increase from the same period the previous year and the most since the June 2013 quarter.

In fact, coal was behind 32% of the energy it generated in the December quarter.

Genesis says, the “unprecedented” gas and hydro shortage at the end of last year saw it run two dual fuel Rankine units at Huntly on coal for long periods.

Dry weather also saw hydro storage levels hit rock bottom; the cumulation of events forcing Genesis to import coal from Indonesia.

And the use of natural gas for electricity generation doesn't often get a mention, and even though not as bad as coal for the environment, this certainly needs to be taken into account.

So, if you double or triple the number of EVs that need to be charged up during times of gas and hydro shortage, who can say with any certainty that we won't again be importing coal from overseas to generate the required electricity?

It's fairly obvious that the renewable grid will need to be expanded as we add more demand on it. Merdian this week has already shown signs that they're about to expand their wind generation: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/114756784/wind-farm-first-approved-14-years-ago-may-finally-get-underway

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tdgeek

29751 posts

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#2291337 7-Aug-2019 07:15

Obraik:

tdgeek:

Obraik:

One doesn't have to buy an EV to avoid the extra tax on a vehicle. There are plenty of cheap, non-EV vehicles that either won't have any tax applied to them or will even have a subsidy applied to them.

But that has been criticised here. As was any use of FF.Now recent posts tell us the electricity generation by FF is actually very cool? WE all want green but some of you guys are a moving target.

I'm not debating whether I'm for or against that, but that's what the government has proposed. So given that's how it's going to be, the point that one is being forced into paying extra tax on the new vehicle they buy or that they're being forced to buy an EV isn't valid.

That wasnt what I said

tdgeek

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#2291340 7-Aug-2019 07:20

frednz:

Obraik:

The problem with the National parties opposition of the tax is that they then expect ALL tax payers to fund the EV subsidy. What seems fairer - those who are creating the emissions pay for those emissions OR everyone pays towards an EV subsidy? To me it seems only fair that those who are creating emissions pay for it.

As for the last part, there's a limit on how much power we can generate from coal - 5% of the total grid capacity. Of course, this is assuming the renewable grid doesn't grow to keep up with the demand as the EV numbers gradually grow. Of course, even if the grid was 100% non-renewable powered it an EV would still create less emissions than a ICE vehicle so that last statement in the quote is BS too.

Although this has been mentioned heaps of times before, I think the subsidy could simply be the removal of GST on EVs (but not on small petrol vehicles such as the Suzuki Swift).

As to whether the renewable grid can keep up with demand, this article may be of interest:

https://www.interest.co.nz/business/97731/make-nzs-future-energy-supply-called-question-unprecedented-gas-and-hydro-shortages

From the above:

Genesis Energy’s reliance on coal at the end of last year (2018) is again putting the debate around how New Zealand will generate energy in the future on the table.

The company reports it generated 512 gigawatt-hours of energy using coal in the December quarter – a 155% increase from the same period the previous year and the most since the June 2013 quarter.

In fact, coal was behind 32% of the energy it generated in the December quarter.

Genesis says, the “unprecedented” gas and hydro shortage at the end of last year saw it run two dual fuel Rankine units at Huntly on coal for long periods.

Dry weather also saw hydro storage levels hit rock bottom; the cumulation of events forcing Genesis to import coal from Indonesia.

And the use of natural gas for electricity generation doesn't often get a mention, and even though not as bad as coal for the environment, this certainly needs to be taken into account.

So, if you double or triple the number of EVs that need to be charged up during times of gas and hydro shortage, who can say with any certainty that we won't again be importing coal from overseas to generate the required electricity?

Our resident power generation expert has already debunked this. You are wrong, I am woing Genesis is wrong, etc.

I think with the Swift and the newfound support here for burning FF for power generation is that EV's will take forever to take over the roads. So, any change that can reduce emissions is beneficial.

tdgeek

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#2291341 7-Aug-2019 07:27

Obraik:

It's fairly obvious that the renewable grid will need to be expanded as we add more demand on it. Merdian this week has already shown signs that they're about to expand their wind generation: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/114756784/wind-farm-first-approved-14-years-ago-may-finally-get-underway

After 14 years, it may go ahead according to this article. It mustn't be consented as you told us that the consents will all be happening. Should this go ahead there are 20 more needed of this size, that's just wind.

"If we get to the stage when we are in a position to commence construction, then it will likely be at the beginning of 2020, and with any decision to build subject to a final Meridian Board approval," she said.

The ministry estimated about 6300 megawatts of new generating capacity will be needed in the next 30 years and assumes that, based on current trends, 55 per cent of that new capacity will come from wind.

You said about 3100 mW I recall, now its 6300.

Obraik

2123 posts

Uber Geek

#2291446 7-Aug-2019 10:27

tdgeek:

Obraik:

It's fairly obvious that the renewable grid will need to be expanded as we add more demand on it. Merdian this week has already shown signs that they're about to expand their wind generation: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/114756784/wind-farm-first-approved-14-years-ago-may-finally-get-underway

After 14 years, it may go ahead according to this article. It mustn't be consented as you told us that the consents will all be happening. Should this go ahead there are 20 more needed of this size, that's just wind.

"If we get to the stage when we are in a position to commence construction, then it will likely be at the beginning of 2020, and with any decision to build subject to a final Meridian Board approval," she said.

The ministry estimated about 6300 megawatts of new generating capacity will be needed in the next 30 years and assumes that, based on current trends, 55 per cent of that new capacity will come from wind.

You said about 3100 mW I recall, now its 6300.

If you had followed the discussion in the other thread you would have picked up that they get consent for these projects well in advanced of actually building them. You're right, more will need to be added and again, if you had followed the discussion in the other thread you will see that there are more on the consented list, just like this one is. However, since this thread is meant to be about the politics of the clean car subsidy proposal this discussion should probably be taken back to the more relevant thread.

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tdgeek

29751 posts

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#2291521 7-Aug-2019 10:50

Obraik:

tdgeek:

Obraik:

It's fairly obvious that the renewable grid will need to be expanded as we add more demand on it. Merdian this week has already shown signs that they're about to expand their wind generation: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/114756784/wind-farm-first-approved-14-years-ago-may-finally-get-underway

After 14 years, it may go ahead according to this article. It mustn't be consented as you told us that the consents will all be happening. Should this go ahead there are 20 more needed of this size, that's just wind.

"If we get to the stage when we are in a position to commence construction, then it will likely be at the beginning of 2020, and with any decision to build subject to a final Meridian Board approval," she said.

The ministry estimated about 6300 megawatts of new generating capacity will be needed in the next 30 years and assumes that, based on current trends, 55 per cent of that new capacity will come from wind.

You said about 3100 mW I recall, now its 6300.

If you had followed the discussion in the other thread you would have picked up that they get consent for these projects well in advanced of actually building them. You're right, more will need to be added and again, if you had followed the discussion in the other thread you will see that there are more on the consented list, just like this one is. However, since this thread is meant to be about the politics of the clean car subsidy proposal this discussion should probably be taken back to the more relevant thread.

If you followed the thread? Childish. No wonder this and the other thread is long but only a few that participate.More did earlier, you can see why they effed off

Obraik

2123 posts

Uber Geek

#2300505 16-Aug-2019 16:28

According to this poster on Reddit, an ad National has had on Facebook spreading false information about the Clean Cars proposal is being investigated by the ASA

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