Our PM Jacinda Ardern (and the government)

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1787 posts

Uber Geek

#2992721 7-Nov-2022 08:02

They had to spend time trying to bag the opposition and attack Luxon, the portion of the conference "celebrating their achievements" would have been very short.........

The $190m package for WFF & childcare subsidies, just more vote buying, shoring up the low income votes

GV27

5896 posts

Uber Geek

#2992724 7-Nov-2022 08:16

tdgeek:

Re your comments on tax thresholds, 100% agree, no reason why they are not indexed annually, tax tables are just software updates. But, they affect NZ revenue. As does foregoing nurses and teachers pay increases, until that becomes yet another problem. If you forego these pay increases, tax thresholds, you garner more revenue/less costs. Yet we still cannot move forward, NZ is just too small. End of the day, nothing will change here, we are too small. If we gave the pay increases, tax thresholds this week, that might cost x billion per annum. Well, thats ok, not too bad, but the reality is, every annual budget is affected, forever.

The alternative outcome there though is that if you have to lift tax rates to get more government income in real terms to fund things, then you have to make a deliberate policy decision and take it to the electorate. They can then decide if that's reasonable and whether they end up getting good value for the increase in real taxation. Actual transparent government.

What we have now is the worst of both worlds, where the Govt clips the ticket anyway, and we still get the same crappy outcomes - yet gets off the hook for not getting their own inflation or blowouts (Health, Polytechs, 3 Waters) under control. There is little incentive for them to change the way things run, so they are able to justify leaving things like tax brackets at the same level for over a decade.

If that's their approach to having the power to collect revenue, then they have abused that privilege, and the ability to set those rates should be taken away from them.

GV27

5896 posts

Uber Geek

#2992726 7-Nov-2022 08:22

sen8or:

The $190m package for WFF & childcare subsidies, just more vote buying, shoring up the low income votes

Also far and away a crappy policy outcome. $100K isn't enough to get a mortgage in Auckland. So two sets of working parents. But you then blow way past the threshold for getting any assistance, so you're stuck having to bear the full brunt of the cost of childcare - which for five days is getting close to $330 at our centre.

That's $17K of childcare costs that we're stumping 100% for, out of after-tax earnings. But we're paying for two sets of running costs on cars, etc and all the costs that come with getting to and from jobs.

And those are Auckland costs. Places where it costs far less to live have the same threshold. So people in Auckland spending a much higher portion of their incomes to cover the basics are left underwriting those who live in far more affordable and cheaper parts of the country.

And don't even get me started on the '20 hours free' still being only 20 hours when in reality you need two full-time incomes to keep a roof over your head in Auckland. The days of women returning to work part-time after kids are long-gone, government policy should reflect that.

It's not unreasonable to expect this stuff to be updated more than once every 15 years. But when it does, someone wants the credit for doing something that's years overdue thanks to feckless governments.

sir1963

3260 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

#2992731 7-Nov-2022 08:33

sen8or:

They had to spend time trying to bag the opposition and attack Luxon, the portion of the conference "celebrating their achievements" would have been very short.........

The $190m package for WFF & childcare subsidies, just more vote buying, shoring up the low income votes

So basically the same as what National is doing, but instead of giving the really wealthy tax cuts they don't actually need, they are giving it to poor people who do need the help.

sir1963

3260 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

#2992734 7-Nov-2022 08:41

GV27:

sen8or:

The $190m package for WFF & childcare subsidies, just more vote buying, shoring up the low income votes

Also far and away a crappy policy outcome. $100K isn't enough to get a mortgage in Auckland. So two sets of working parents. But you then blow way past the threshold for getting any assistance, so you're stuck having to bear the full brunt of the cost of childcare - which for five days is getting close to $330 at our centre.

That's $17K of childcare costs that we're stumping 100% for, out of after-tax earnings. But we're paying for two sets of running costs on cars, etc and all the costs that come with getting to and from jobs.

And those are Auckland costs. Places where it costs far less to live have the same threshold. So people in Auckland spending a much higher portion of their incomes to cover the basics are left underwriting those who live in far more affordable and cheaper parts of the country.

And don't even get me started on the '20 hours free' still being only 20 hours when in reality you need two full-time incomes to keep a roof over your head in Auckland. The days of women returning to work part-time after kids are long-gone, government policy should reflect that.

It's not unreasonable to expect this stuff to be updated more than once every 15 years. But when it does, someone wants the credit for doing something that's years overdue thanks to feckless governments.

And the people with zero kids, well they get no tax breaks, even though they are a substantially less of a drain on the tax payer..

They are underwriting every child thats not theirs.

Do you see how the game is played ?

You justify something for yourself, that same justification can be applied to another group.

I have been a working solo dad, I got no free child care, no free child healthcare, spent 1/3 of my income on after school care, paid higher taxes, etc etc etc etc.

I would actually have been better off going on a benefit, But what I did keep is a good job which I still do 25+ years later.

GV27

5896 posts

Uber Geek

#2992736 7-Nov-2022 08:52

sir1963:

And the people with zero kids, well they get no tax breaks, even though they are a substantially less of a drain on the tax payer..

They are underwriting every child thats not theirs.

Do you see how the game is played ?

You justify something for yourself, that same justification can be applied to another group.

I have been a working solo dad, I got no free child care, no free child healthcare, spent 1/3 of my income on after school care, paid higher taxes, etc etc etc etc.

I would actually have been better off going on a benefit, But what I did keep is a good job which I still do 25+ years later.

...and eventually they will be relying on other people's children to pay the tax that funds their super, probably for a good 30 years or so, even though they will retire with a far better financial position than the people who actually raised those future workers.

So yes, I see how that works. But the people who complain about people who have kids when they choose not to seem to forget about this angle for some reason.

The justification here is simple: The government gets away with not adjusting basic things that reflect huge increases for living costs, and then gets to act like Santa when they finally do their job a decade too late.

Situations like what you dealt with is precisely why calling this sort of thing out for what it is is so important.

sen8or

1787 posts

Uber Geek

#2992791 7-Nov-2022 09:24

sir1963:

sen8or:

They had to spend time trying to bag the opposition and attack Luxon, the portion of the conference "celebrating their achievements" would have been very short.........

The $190m package for WFF & childcare subsidies, just more vote buying, shoring up the low income votes

So basically the same as what National is doing, but instead of giving the really wealthy tax cuts they don't actually need, they are giving it to poor people who do need the help.

What the left fail to realise is that money is not a strong motivator for "the rich". Beyond a certain level of wealth / income, "more income" doesn't really have much of an impact on their daily lives nor is it necessarily a strong argument for buying votes. Sure, who doesn't want to pay less tax, but, where and how tax money is spent is far more influential than an extra $20, 30, 50, 100 or whatever a week in the hand.

A Government that wastes millions on pet projects whilst not achieving anything is far worse in the eyes of tax payers than one that spends wisely improving society.

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GV27

5896 posts

Uber Geek

#2992845 7-Nov-2022 09:43

sen8or:

What the left fail to realise is that money is not a strong motivator for "the rich". Beyond a certain level of wealth / income, "more income" doesn't really have much of an impact on their daily lives nor is it necessarily a strong argument for buying votes. Sure, who doesn't want to pay less tax, but, where and how tax money is spent is far more influential than an extra $20, 30, 50, 100 or whatever a week in the hand.

A Government that wastes millions on pet projects whilst not achieving anything is far worse in the eyes of tax payers than one that spends wisely improving society.

Meanwhile the indexing would probably be a huge help to the people who miss out on this kind of assistance by virtue of earning over the threshold, even though they still have the same costs.

It's like some people think you're either a struggling family on under $130K for your household or an uber-wealthy executive on $450K and there's literally no one in-between.

sir1963

3260 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

#2993261 7-Nov-2022 19:04

I see Jacinda has come out with the "Look over there" approach.

Lets now blame the banks....

We have done

Lets blame landlords

Lets blame developers

Lets blame supermarkets

Lets blame petrol companies

etc etc etc.

A diversionary populist outcry to hide how labours policies have failed, and "It will get better soon" is NOT adequate either.

Housing is still a mess (probably worse), I would NOT be holidaying in Rotorua....

Mental health is a mess

Healthcare is a mess and its about to get MUCH MUCH worse

Tertiary education is a mess

Roading is full of pot holes

Youth crime is a mess

The PMs trip to Antartica was NOT a scheduled trip, it was put on specially for her at tax payers expense.

This election is entirely "Who do I not want least" , because NONE of the parties have anything positive to offer.

Luxon puts me off the Nats, he should go run an airline somewhere again, being John Keys mate is not a sign of competency.

ezbee

2405 posts

Uber Geek

#2993269 7-Nov-2022 20:23

No party we have will solve all the issues of pot holes education etc.
Certainly no one will tax enough to buy a way to deal with these. Pothole fixing comes with real costs.
Denmark level taxes are not on the table.

So it's a case of will X do a bit better than Y or Z.
Given the UK example, with Covid debt still to be paid etc, reducing tax does not help.
Reducing tax at the top end even less.

Giving rental property owners more advantages over people buying a house to live in may not help housing either.

Maybe different looks like the innovative bus driver grant, a bit of trickle up?
Afterall those at the bottom end spend all the earn, so money injected cycles around the economy.

Perfection is enemy of good, and a bit of progress in a better direction may be better than none.

Potholes, well you start to look at is it really your light sedan or hatch breaking them up or ever larger heavier trucks.
What might be answers to that ?

gzt

17104 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2993270 7-Nov-2022 20:24

Let's now blame the banks

Luxon and Willis agree:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/pm-jacinda-ardern-to-front-post-cabinet-press-conference-after-poll-labour-party-conference/OD2OUSHCPVHXZMQ2GQYJNWUMBA/

In practice I think the Prime minister's attempt to talk down the rate might be more effective and useful than what Luxon and Willis are proposing in this case.

sir1963

3260 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

#2993294 7-Nov-2022 21:55

ezbee:

Potholes, well you start to look at is it really your light sedan or hatch breaking them up or ever larger heavier trucks.
What might be answers to that ?

Improve rail

Get NZR to go back to electric trains

We are going to eventually rely on the majority of heavy transport by rail anyway. As electric cars take over the investment into fossil fuel engine will decline, apart from the cost of the fuel going up.

We do NOT have enough power generation for everyone to have electric cars, and certainly now enough for large scale electric trucking. Rail has far less rolling resistance and is therefore more efficient anyway.

As always, I am sure each party knows this and is leaving the "Look they are wasting money" alone by doing nothing, just hoping that when the S hits the fan they will be in opposition and can exploit it.

This is exactly where we are with health, its a 10-20 year story of neglect and failure to plan.

I expect than in 10 years time, we will wondering why tertiary education has also gone down hill rapidly, and its for the exact same reasons, failure to invest because there are no votes in it for them.

GV27

5896 posts

Uber Geek

#2993323 8-Nov-2022 06:25

gzt:
Let's now blame the banks

Luxon and Willis agree:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/pm-jacinda-ardern-to-front-post-cabinet-press-conference-after-poll-labour-party-conference/OD2OUSHCPVHXZMQ2GQYJNWUMBA/

In practice I think the Prime minister's attempt to talk down the rate might be more effective and useful than what Luxon and Willis are proposing in this case.

The PM can talk all she wants, unless she gets up and says it no uncertain term when they needed the win from the petrol price investigation, nothing will happen. Nothing happened at $1b per bank, now we're at $2b profit and counting.

When it was petrol companies it was "We are getting fleeced". So this is a pretty tepid response. Perhaps they've cottoned on that Com Com investigations that don't go anywhere doesn't placate people like they used to.

As for reviewing the RBNZ response like National proposes; we should absolutely be doing this. RBNZ is still underwriting cheap funds for lending through the FLP programme, undermining the impact of its own OCR rate increases and keeping the credit taps open. And that's before you get into the mess that was the uncorking of the LVRs for investors etc, or the interest rates being left on the floor while inflation overshot and they insisted it was 'transitory'.

Doesn't feel very transitory at the moment, does it?

gzt

17104 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2993324 8-Nov-2022 06:57

National's finance chief has not yet drawn your conclusions on the FLP:

article: [Willis] declined to name any subsequent actions saying the “first step” was to understand if there had been “excessive profits” made.

I take your point about Ardern's warning. In retrospect the tone suggests something else.

GV27

5896 posts

Uber Geek

#2993331 8-Nov-2022 07:33

gzt: National's finance chief has not yet drawn your conclusions on the FLP:

I believe National want a review of the actions through the pandemic by RBNZ before Orr's appointment is considered although that process is already underway - that's just a question of timing, that process was always going to fall awkwardly before the next election.

Unsure what the internal discussions are at RBNZ but the Nats seem to want some public discussion about it.

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