Christopher Luxon, New Zealand Prime Minister 2023

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#3165410 29-Nov-2023 07:53

Further to that what would have made the last Govt successful and the new Govt successful? Low inflation, good economy, education health and infrastructure are all in a good place. Housing is affordable. Impossible. All are decades in the making. So each govt will look after its voters and that will roll over each election year on year. To fix these issues NZ needs massive reset and a development program. Tax has to increase to fund it, then we have more people moving to Australia. Or we dont fix them, so people move to Australia. Its a problem when our country is the same size as UK and Japan, but like many here, Ive been to many cities that are double the population of our whole country. Thats the challenge for any NZ govt, its a no win situation, so we vote in tax cuts that we cannot afford or we vote in 100,000 new houses in 10 years which we cannot do. Then we switch sides and start over.

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#3165412 29-Nov-2023 07:59

tdgeek:

To fix these issues NZ needs massive reset and a development program. Tax has to increase to fund it, then we have more people moving to Australia.

Unfortunately any party that suggests doing this won't get elected. Maybe due to successive governments spending tax dollars poorly.

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#3165414 29-Nov-2023 08:02

In the case of the last election I don't think tax cuts had any influence. The voters were just tired of Labour and wanted a change. Policy didn't matter.

If Luxon had been a more appealing personality, like JK, he would have probably won a majority.

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#3165416 29-Nov-2023 08:12

tdgeek:
Further to that what would have made the last Govt successful and the new Govt successful?

Being successful at delivering progress on anything other than the early Covid response.

They couldn’t manage their way out of a paper bag so they are gone.

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#3165417 29-Nov-2023 08:13

SJB:

Unfortunately any party that suggests doing this won't get elected. Maybe due to successive governments spending tax dollars poorly.

Yep.

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#3165422 29-Nov-2023 08:18

Handle9:
tdgeek:

Further to that what would have made the last Govt successful and the new Govt successful?

Being successful at delivering progress on anything other than the early Covid response.

They couldn’t manage their way out of a paper bag so they are gone.

A few pages back there is a raft of rollbacks that the Coalition will reverse. Add to that a few things that they wont roll back. There were plenty of positive things done. The big sectors? Nothing done. If they cannot manage their way out of a paper bag then the new Government will surely nail it I assume. They will fix inflation so that's a pretty good start....

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#3165425 29-Nov-2023 08:21

SJB:

In the case of the last election I don't think tax cuts had any influence. The voters were just tired of Labour and wanted a change. Policy didn't matter.

That's a possibility. All Covid govts are gone, so it begs the question why waste funds on tax cuts? Up to $250 a fortnight helps lol. If you are a low wage single its a little bit less, $9 I think. The 14B or so could have gone to the problem sectors.

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#3165442 29-Nov-2023 09:29

tdgeek:

That's a possibility. All Covid govts are gone, so it begs the question why waste funds on tax cuts? Up to $250 a fortnight helps lol. If you are a low wage single its a little bit less, $9 I think. The 14B or so could have gone to the problem sectors.

Worth noting that the money National is offering in terms of tax 'cuts' is really just a fraction of the proportional increase the government has netted by not adjusting the tax brackets for inflation in 13 years. So it is not so much a 'cut' as just reversing tax increases that have occurred without formal mandate or ever being campaigned on, which I would argue is an abuse of the power to set and collect taxes.

The other issue that flows from this is 'at what point do you have enough to fix the problem sectors'? The tax take is already up something like 70% on what it was before Labour got in, and the people you collect it from are also facing huge living costs pressures. They can only spend the net wage they get to take home, not their gross. If that is having to work harder and harder to maintain even a basic standard of living then it becomes even more important the government is actually making the most of the money it collects, especially when it skyrockets like it has in the last decade.

There is no easy answer to this (I mean legislating for the tax rates to automatically adjust within a window based on the Q3 Stats NZ inflation figures is the answer) but the ideologies behind "all tax good" and "all tax bad" are becoming more dominant and there's no sensible middle-ground discussion anymore. Part of that is directly the result of the governments' from both sides of the house and their neglect of the tax system, and in that regard they only have themselves to blame.

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#3165495 29-Nov-2023 09:50

GV27:

Worth noting that the money National is offering in terms of tax 'cuts' is really just a fraction of the proportional increase the government has netted by not adjusting the tax brackets for inflation in 13 years. So it is not so much a 'cut' as just reversing tax increases that have occurred without formal mandate or ever being campaigned on, which I would argue is an abuse of the power to set and collect taxes.

The other issue that flows from this is 'at what point do you have enough to fix the problem sectors'? The tax take is already up something like 70% on what it was before Labour got in, and the people you collect it from are also facing huge living costs pressures. They can only spend the net wage they get to take home, not their gross. If that is having to work harder and harder to maintain even a basic standard of living then it becomes even more important the government is actually making the most of the money it collects, especially when it skyrockets like it has in the last decade.

There is no easy answer to this (I mean legislating for the tax rates to automatically adjust within a window based on the Q3 Stats NZ inflation figures is the answer) but the ideologies behind "all tax good" and "all tax bad" are becoming more dominant and there's no sensible middle-ground discussion anymore. Part of that is directly the result of the governments' from both sides of the house and their neglect of the tax system, and in that regard they only have themselves to blame.

I agree with all that.

Mathematically NZ cannot support itself in my opinion. NZ needs more income (tax) to support everything that needs supporting (health etc etc etc) But there is no income (tax) that can be derived from companies, employees and GST. because tax is bad. Tax is an evil word these days. So, if we have a tax take that people can live with, we cannot improve the sectors in need. This means people are "ok-ish" but the sectors arent so the same people (not you, just everybody) complain about them. I cannot see any answer.

With regards to this thread Labour did some good stuff (for their voters) but didnt make ground on the problem sectors. The Coalition will be the same, satisfy their voters and do nothing for the problem sectors

But yeah, with all that said, may as well just set threshold adjustments each 1 April and see how we go. It does make Capital Gains Tax and Wealth Tax a likely need to have at some point. If we cannot get more tax we can at least redistribute it? But not in a Robin Hood way

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#3165496 29-Nov-2023 09:54

tdgeek:

GV27:

Worth noting that the money National is offering in terms of tax 'cuts' is really just a fraction of the proportional increase the government has netted by not adjusting the tax brackets for inflation in 13 years. So it is not so much a 'cut' as just reversing tax increases that have occurred without formal mandate or ever being campaigned on, which I would argue is an abuse of the power to set and collect taxes.

The other issue that flows from this is 'at what point do you have enough to fix the problem sectors'? The tax take is already up something like 70% on what it was before Labour got in, and the people you collect it from are also facing huge living costs pressures. They can only spend the net wage they get to take home, not their gross. If that is having to work harder and harder to maintain even a basic standard of living then it becomes even more important the government is actually making the most of the money it collects, especially when it skyrockets like it has in the last decade.

There is no easy answer to this (I mean legislating for the tax rates to automatically adjust within a window based on the Q3 Stats NZ inflation figures is the answer) but the ideologies behind "all tax good" and "all tax bad" are becoming more dominant and there's no sensible middle-ground discussion anymore. Part of that is directly the result of the governments' from both sides of the house and their neglect of the tax system, and in that regard they only have themselves to blame.

I agree with all that.

Mathematically NZ cannot support itself in my opinion. NZ needs more income (tax) to support everything that needs supporting (health etc etc etc) But there is no income (tax) that can be derived from companies, employees and GST. because tax is bad. Tax is an evil word these days. So, if we have a tax take that people can live with, we cannot improve the sectors in need. This means people are "ok-ish" but the sectors arent so the same people (not you, just everybody) complain about them. I cannot see any answer.

With regards to this thread Labour did some good stuff (for their voters) but didnt make ground on the problem sectors. The Coalition will be the same, satisfy their voters and do nothing for the problem sectors

But yeah, with all that said, may as well just set threshold adjustments each 1 April and see how we go. It does make Capital Gains Tax and Wealth Tax a likely need to have at some point. If we cannot get more tax we can at least redistribute it? But not in a Robin Hood way

We need to move away from low profits areas, ie primary produce and tourism.

We MUST push harder into high tech, into high paying jobs, that is our only hope for increases in living standards.

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#3165497 29-Nov-2023 10:00

tdgeek:

But yeah, with all that said, may as well just set threshold adjustments each 1 April and see how we go. It does make Capital Gains Tax and Wealth Tax a likely need to have at some point. If we cannot get more tax we can at least redistribute it? But not in a Robin Hood way

When the richest 311 families - so less than 10,000 people - own more wealth than the bottom 2.5M people and pay less than half the effective rate of tax as a teacher or a fire fighter, it isn't 'Robin Hood' to suggest they aren't pulling their weight. They benefit from this society that we have setup. They benefit from the police and courts and the roads and the water and the passports and all those other things.

The only people who think it is "theft" that they might have to pay even the same rate of tax as a teacher, are the wealthiest 311 families in New Zealand.

You have billions of dollars and don't want to contribute your fair share to the country? Leave. Nothing's stopping you. The rest of us work for a living.

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#3165554 29-Nov-2023 10:38

SaltyNZ:

When the richest 311 families - so less than 10,000 people - own more wealth than the bottom 2.5M people and pay less than half the effective rate of tax as a teacher or a fire fighter, it isn't 'Robin Hood' to suggest they aren't pulling their weight. They benefit from this society that we have setup. They benefit from the police and courts and the roads and the water and the passports and all those other things.

The only people who think it is "theft" that they might have to pay even the same rate of tax as a teacher, are the wealthiest 311 families in New Zealand.

You have billions of dollars and don't want to contribute your fair share to the country? Leave. Nothing's stopping you. The rest of us work for a living.

Agree, Robin Hood stole from the rich and gave to the poor, we need a fair redistribution. A poor person has a PDI of zero. a wealthy person after having his say 25% tax taken still has a massive PDI

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#3165562 29-Nov-2023 10:45

SaltyNZ:

tdgeek:

But yeah, with all that said, may as well just set threshold adjustments each 1 April and see how we go. It does make Capital Gains Tax and Wealth Tax a likely need to have at some point. If we cannot get more tax we can at least redistribute it? But not in a Robin Hood way

When the richest 311 families - so less than 10,000 people - own more wealth than the bottom 2.5M people and pay less than half the effective rate of tax as a teacher or a fire fighter, it isn't 'Robin Hood' to suggest they aren't pulling their weight. They benefit from this society that we have setup. They benefit from the police and courts and the roads and the water and the passports and all those other things.

The only people who think it is "theft" that they might have to pay even the same rate of tax as a teacher, are the wealthiest 311 families in New Zealand.

You have billions of dollars and don't want to contribute your fair share to the country? Leave. Nothing's stopping you. The rest of us work for a living.

Wealth does not mean income , we tax income.

Capital gains is not income, no matter how much you want it to be so.

SJB

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#3165564 29-Nov-2023 10:50

There needs to be a change so that the smaller parties in a coalition don't hold so much power. The tail is wagging the dog so more extreme policies, generally only supported by a small minority, are being forced upon the rest of us.

Maybe the rule should be that only the party with the most seats can form a coalition. If they can't it's back to the ballot box. That way the minor parties with extreme views might get punished by the voters if they refused to moderate their demands so a government could be formed.

GV27

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#3165567 29-Nov-2023 11:01

tdgeek:

I agree with all that.

Mathematically NZ cannot support itself in my opinion. NZ needs more income (tax) to support everything that needs supporting (health etc etc etc) But there is no income (tax) that can be derived from companies, employees and GST. because tax is bad. Tax is an evil word these days. So, if we have a tax take that people can live with, we cannot improve the sectors in need. This means people are "ok-ish" but the sectors arent so the same people (not you, just everybody) complain about them. I cannot see any answer.

With regards to this thread Labour did some good stuff (for their voters) but didnt make ground on the problem sectors. The Coalition will be the same, satisfy their voters and do nothing for the problem sectors

But yeah, with all that said, may as well just set threshold adjustments each 1 April and see how we go. It does make Capital Gains Tax and Wealth Tax a likely need to have at some point. If we cannot get more tax we can at least redistribute it? But not in a Robin Hood way

I think normalising the huge inflated tax take without a correlating increase in the availability of public services is probably the worst hang-over the current government has to deal with. I'm not sure they're equipped to deal with it. They're also not bold enough for a slash-and-burn approach that provokes difficult conversations about what you can afford to fund and designing the tax system to collect revenue to fund it.

To give you some inkling of how likely that is, I understand the Minister of Revenue is Simon Watts who is a CA (good start) but sits outside cabinet.

So to say I am fairly disappointed is a massive understatement.

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