Spark not planning to deploy native IPv6 at all. Ever.

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Erayd

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Topic # 206037 7-Dec-2016 15:24

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I have been asking Spark about the state of IPv6 deployment on their network for years (and the answer is always "sometime soon, no ETA"), however today they responded with this gem from tier 2 complex support:

To be honest with you, there is no timeframe for the IPV6 launch.

As to its launch, Spark would only adopt it if it were deemed absolutely necessary.

At this time, we have no residential or business customers who require the IPV6 specification, and thus there’s no hurry for Spark to deploy something that would cost a lot of time and resources for something that isn't required.

This kind of attitude from an ISP really annoys me. IPv6 is one of those things that obviously won't be used until it's available, and until it's available, it can't be used and people will work around its lack.

Spark - sort it out please. It's almost 2017; in my opinion this kind of attitude towards core infrastructure is unacceptable, particularly when you've been promising me for years that it's coming.

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Reply # 1684046 7-Dec-2016 16:12

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Right now there are something like 80 RSP's in the NZ market. The great thing about competition is you're free to use any of those that meet your requirements. If Spark can't meet those, move.

FWIW I've never heard any official or unofficial comment from Spark or from anybody I know there say that it was "coming soon". There has never been an ETA.

jonb

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Reply # 1684048 7-Dec-2016 16:17

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Probably linked to one of the advantages of being a former national monopoly - boatloads of ipv4 address blocks

wellygary

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Reply # 1684071 7-Dec-2016 17:01

According to this chart doing the rounds a few years ago, I think they will be OK for a while

https://nztelco.com/2011/08/08/ipv4-in-nz-this-is-all-we-get/

NZ Ip allocations

Dairyxox

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Reply # 1684073 7-Dec-2016 17:08

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What sort of issues are you having with not having IPV6?

I'm on 2degrees broadband, and have disabled ipv6.

hio77

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Reply # 1684081 7-Dec-2016 17:42

Worth pointing out, you are twisting the reps words there, The Rep never did state "IPv6 is not planning to ever deploy IPv6".

Spark will add IPv6 at some point, they already do prevision modems with the setup for their network.

Network side the IP is simply not being handed out just yet.
It will come when its ready, Hopefully without a hitch when rolled out unlike the current state of Vodafone - Announced as completed, later corrected to only enabled in some locations and a large fault in their current system has benched any further roll-outs till that is resolved.

Personally, i feel if Big Red can sort their network out, it would put a bit more pressure there. But again, Just ask for it.. the demand is noted.

If your lucky @Talkiet may have a Statement about the planned designs, however i doubt he will have anything to say past indicating It will come at some stage. Past that it would likely be taken as utterly official by someone..

Remember Most of that side of the team is getting into their holiday period (long day, i forget the exact word for it) so you will still be looking a reasonable timespan regardless of the case.

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Talkiet

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Reply # 1684123 7-Dec-2016 17:55

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hio77:

If your lucky @Talkiet may have a Statement ... [snip]

Noticed a tag in here for me... thanks :-)

You're right. OP is twisting the words or the rep spoke completely out of turn - or possibly out of frustration with the caller.

IPv6 "will come at some stage" for sure, and it's already deployed in parts of our network for testing - NOT on any residential BB customer lines though - so don't anyone get your hopes up for a trialists position any time soon!

I will say there are more urgent developments that will have more immediate and bigger impacts on customers than deploying IPv6 and while it's getting some love in the background it's not our top priority.

As mentioned above, the great thing about the number of RSPs in the NZ market is that there are many that have launched IPv6, with varying levels of success - so if anyone has an actual need for IPv6 today, they have options. Don't get me wrong - we'd love your business Erayd, but if it's that crucial to you then don't rely on us having it on residential BB in the next few months.

You're also being naive in thinking the lack of visible progress on IPv6 reflects our attitude to core infrastructure - that's a frustrated emotional statement and it doesn't reflect the reality.

Cheers - N

richms

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Reply # 1684130 7-Dec-2016 18:12

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Really needs the content providers to start driving it IMO. Till everything is accessible over v4 then people have no reason to care.

There might be some push from the iot side of things, but most people are fine having things bounce thru a cloud server somewhere. Perhaps if that starts to limit remote viewing quality etc then could get some push for support there. But as it is, its a nice to have for a few nerdy types and turning it off does nothing bad to your connection, an ISP without it also doesnt hurt things.

Richard rich.ms

Erayd

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Reply # 1684133 7-Dec-2016 18:16

Right now there are something like 80 RSP's in the NZ market. The great thing about competition is you're free to use any of those that meet your requirements. If Spark can't meet those, move.

Moving isn't really an option for me at this point.

* Most of those RSPs do not offer business plans with IPv6 support.
* I need very low latency (currently ~2.3ms) to another site in my area with Spark fibre, which is outside of my control. This essentially means I'm either stuck with Spark, or have to live with higher latency on that link.
* I'm currently locked into a contract with Spark.

What sort of issues are you having with not having IPV6?

Running dual-stack servers, direct access to infrastructure without needing to go through NAT, and outbound access to IPv6-only resources in Asia.

Worth pointing out, you are twisting the reps words there, The Rep never did state "IPv6 is not planning to ever deploy IPv6".

They explicitly said "only if absolutely necessary"; i.e. if only if thye are forced to. In my opinion, "never" is a fairly reasonable interpretation of that, as it seems unlikely there will be significant market pressure for them to do so in NZ for the foreseeable future.

But again, Just ask for it.. the demand is noted.

I've been asking for Spark to support IPv6 every few months for over a decade now. It doesn't seem to have had any impact.

@Talkiet - thanks for your response. It's possible that the rep was speaking out of turn, although given how long this has taken, I'm inclined to believe them.

IPv6 "will come at some stage" for sure, and it's already deployed in parts of our network for testing - NOT on any residential BB customer lines though - so don't anyone get your hopes up for a trialists position any time soon!

Thing is, I've been hearing this for many years. I'm sick of it. The lack of visible progress on this for so long speaks volumes, and in all honesty my conclusion seems reasonable here.

You're also being naive in thinking the lack of visible progress on IPv6 reflects our attitude to core infrastructure - that's a frustrated emotional statement and it doesn't reflect the reality.

IP *is* core infrastructure - it's the underlying transport for essentially all noteworthy internet traffic. Keeping that current is important.

Yes, I fully agree that I am frustrated - but I feel well entitled to be frustrated, noting how long this has taken and how difficult it's been to get any kind of an answer at all from Spark. I do appreciate your response, and have no gripe with your personally, but really not happy with how Spark as a company seems to be approaching this.

Talkiet

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Reply # 1684139 7-Dec-2016 18:20

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Erayd:

[snip]@Talkiet - thanks for your response. It's possible that the rep was speaking out of turn, although given how long this has taken, I'm inclined to believe them.

IPv6 "will come at some stage" for sure, and it's already deployed in parts of our network for testing - NOT on any residential BB customer lines though - so don't anyone get your hopes up for a trialists position any time soon!
Thing is, I've been hearing this for many years. I'm sick of it. The lack of visible progress on this for so long speaks volumes, and in all honesty my conclusion seems reasonable here.

You're also being naive in thinking the lack of visible progress on IPv6 reflects our attitude to core infrastructure - that's a frustrated emotional statement and it doesn't reflect the reality.
IP *is* core infrastructure - it's the underlying transport for essentially all noteworthy internet traffic. Keeping that current is important.

Yes, I fully agree that I am frustrated - but I feel well entitled to be frustrated, noting how long this has taken and how difficult it's been to get any kind of an answer at all from Spark. I do appreciate your response, and have no gripe with your personally, but really not happy with how Spark as a company seems to be approaching this.

A few little points...

1) Whatever you have been hearing for years - you're hearing now from one of the individuals in the group doing the IPv6 work. Your conclusion is wrong.

2) Actually, our core is MPLS

3) It's perfectly reasonable to be frustrated and even a bit annoyed, but if you're going to post things, post facts. Massively coloured (and wrong) interpretations of information you did not get from authoritative sources is not a good start here.

Finally, apart from the fact we're not telling you about our IPv6 progress, you have no idea how we're approaching it.

Cheers - N

BarTender

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Reply # 1684141 7-Dec-2016 18:24

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Talkiet: 1) Whatever you have been hearing for years - you're hearing now from one of the individuals in the group doing the IPv6 work. Your conclusion is wrong.

2) Actually, our core is MPLS

3) It's perfectly reasonable to be frustrated and even a bit annoyed, but if you're going to post things, post facts. Massively coloured (and wrong) interpretations of information you did not get from authoritative sources is not a good start here.

Finally, apart from the fact we're not telling you about our IPv6 progress, you have no idea how we're approaching it.

But you don't even have the IPv6 Badge.... Like some others...

Erayd

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Reply # 1684150 7-Dec-2016 18:41

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@Talkiet

Whatever you have been hearing for years - you're hearing now from one of the individuals in the group doing the IPv6 work. Your conclusion is wrong.

I'm extremely pleased to hear that. I was not aware you were part of the IPv6 group (your previous post did not mention what part of Spark you were associated with) - hearing from someone actually involved with the project is much more useful than any information I've been provided with in the past. It sounds like you're clearly in the position to know where this is at, so quite happy to defer to you on this one.

Actually, our core is MPLS

I wasn't referring to Spark's core network infrastructure specifically, I was pointing out that most of the internet is used for the transport of IP traffic, and that IP transport is thus core infrastructure. Possibly I could have worded that better, but the point still stands. Whether you use MPLS to manage that IP traffic internally within Spark's own network is largely irrelevant to the discussion.

It's perfectly reasonable to be frustrated and even a bit annoyed, but if you're going to post things, post facts. Massively coloured (and wrong) interpretations of information you did not get from authoritative sources is not a good start here.

I did post what was presented to me as facts, from an authoritative source:

* I posted a written quote from Spark's own tier 2 helpdesk, which was provided to me via email. Considering a written response from a company's own helpdesk as authoritative is reasonable - if you feel that it's not, then with due respect, your helpdesk is the thing that needs fixing here.

* Your helpdesk did not say they were guessing, but presented that information as absolute. I took it as such.

* I admit that my post title was mildly hyperbolic - mainly because I was frustrated - but it's still a reasonably accurate interpretation of the information that Spark provided, and I stand by it as reasonable. Calling "no timeframe, will not provide unless absolutely necessary, no customers require it, it's expensive, and it's not required" "never" is a pretty fair interpretation IMO, and not anywhere close to the "massively coloured" interpretation you accuse me of.

* If the information is incorrect, which from what you have said it sounds like it is, that does not mean that my interpretation of it is in any way unfair. The wording that your helpdesk provided does not leave much room for alternative interpretation.

hio77

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Reply # 1684152 7-Dec-2016 18:42

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richms:

Really needs the content providers to start driving it IMO. Till everything is accessible over v4 then people have no reason to care.

There might be some push from the iot side of things, but most people are fine having things bounce thru a cloud server somewhere. Perhaps if that starts to limit remote viewing quality etc then could get some push for support there. But as it is, its a nice to have for a few nerdy types and turning it off does nothing bad to your connection, an ISP without it also doesnt hurt things.

I hope never to see the day where IoT uses v6 tbh..

Think of the nightmare that will be, badly secured cheap chinese products being routable publicly...

Fully agree with Content providers though, Although from that aspect technically your talking more overhead thus slower throughput (be it totally neglectable)

As RSPs deploy IPv6 for their residential service, other RSPs will certainly feel more pressure to offer it.

Myself, If Spark take their time and pull off the connectivity without the many issues other RSP's have/currently have, all the better.

Will say that the issues with IPv6 has given it quite a bad name to the uninformed...

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Beccara

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Reply # 1684154 7-Dec-2016 18:45

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The large CGN RSPs in NZ have shown a way to get v4 space to last NZ for a very long time. v6 will come with it's widely deployed overseas and content networks are better over v6. Until then residential clients will move more to CGN freeing up resources for business clients

Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated

hio77

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Reply # 1684155 7-Dec-2016 18:46

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@Erayd

as per my last comments, you have taken the reps comments out of context there.

Personally would be interested in what area you see as "Tier Two" as spark's structure actually flows far more out than that and as such is quite a generalization.

Lastly, I will simply say, as there is no definite answer written the response you received was likely passed through atleast one teamleader, If not more channels from there.

IPv6 is actually not a common subject that passes the mass queries no my knowledge.

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Erayd

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Reply # 1684158 7-Dec-2016 18:52

Personally would be interested in what area you see as "Tier Two" as spark's structure actually flows far more out than that and as such is quite a generalization.

"Tier 2" was based on the email I received. I have no idea where specifically within Spark that originated, all I know is how that was presented to me - which was "Tier 2 Complex Technical Support".

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