Vodafone TV retirement plan: September 2022

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#2911734 9-May-2022 07:47

When I did the online form to request the pre paid courier bag I received the following....

".......Please return all available cables and power supply units with your modem"

I had ticked it was for VTV but ok. The point is it says all "available" cables and power supply"

GSVNoFixedAbode

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#2911737 9-May-2022 08:14

ukoda:

...It is simply the people who implemented the bootloader security have zero motivation to provide the needed firmware or information to unlock it for reuse, and Vodafone either do not have enough sway over them to get it done, or not enough motivation. I would suspect it is a bit of both.

This! There would probably be quite a number who are not willing/able to re-flash & reuse so need the refund option, and I can understand VF not wanting to take on a burden of support. But I also believe it's a case of overall unwillingness rather than inability to be able to reflash the box.

sansom

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#2911964 9-May-2022 17:51

MikeB4:

When I did the online form to request the pre paid courier bag I received the following....

".......Please return all available cables and power supply units with your modem"

I had ticked it was for VTV but ok. The point is it says all "available" cables and power supply"

Regarding a number of the recent comments about returning all items for recycling:

- We are paying out the refund before checking we have received the VTV and associated accessories

- We are trusting that you will return all items in your possession. But, if you've lost the HDMI, or can re-use the power supply (for example), then that's great and we won't be taking it any further. MikeB4's emphasis on "available" is correct.

Also, regarding some people getting a "$0" refund. This can occur when a Vodafone agent has sent out a replacement box to fix a fault (even when the unit wasn't faulty), as this re-sets the data on when the unit was first seen on the network. We are resolving these on a case by case basis if you contact us using the the email address provided.

Hamish

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#2911968 9-May-2022 17:58

GSVNoFixedAbode:

ukoda:

...It is simply the people who implemented the bootloader security have zero motivation to provide the needed firmware or information to unlock it for reuse, and Vodafone either do not have enough sway over them to get it done, or not enough motivation. I would suspect it is a bit of both.

This! There would probably be quite a number who are not willing/able to re-flash & reuse so need the refund option, and I can understand VF not wanting to take on a burden of support. But I also believe it's a case of overall unwillingness rather than inability to be able to reflash the box.

No, not this! There was motivation and willingness. However, the VTV box security that was designed to assist Vodafone Group's global content deals is such that the bootloader is locked. If it were possible we would have offered it on a no-support basis.

Hamish

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#2911977 9-May-2022 18:11

sansom:

No, not this! There was motivation and willingness. However, the VTV box security that was designed to assist Vodafone Group's global content deals is such that the bootloader is locked. If it were possible we would have offered it on a no-support basis.

I know nothing about this type of thing.

Locked meaning can't run other loaders and unlocked meaning it can right? What is to stop it being unlocked? Is it hardware? or would it be possible to "root"?

Game systems like xbox are "locked" yet can be unlocked to run things like xbmc or is it completely different?

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GSVNoFixedAbode

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#2911983 9-May-2022 18:23

sansom:

No, not this! There was motivation and willingness. However, the VTV box security that was designed to assist Vodafone Group's global content deals is such that the bootloader is locked. If it were possible we would have offered it on a no-support basis.

So VF NZ staff would have liked to do it, but blocked by VF Global? I thought this particular box was an NZ-only release rather than globally-controlled.

Is their concern that if it's unlocked for NZ, that could spread to non-NZ markets ie non-NZ markets are dictating local re-use? Remember, this is not asking for an unlocked fully-functional media player, but a basic box-based OS such as Android that users can then do what they want with.

IceFragmatic

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#2911986 9-May-2022 18:37

GSVNoFixedAbode:

sansom:

No, not this! There was motivation and willingness. However, the VTV box security that was designed to assist Vodafone Group's global content deals is such that the bootloader is locked. If it were possible we would have offered it on a no-support basis.

So VF NZ staff would have liked to do it, but blocked by VF Global? I thought this particular box was an NZ-only release rather than globally-controlled.

Is their concern that if it's unlocked for NZ, that could spread to non-NZ markets ie non-NZ markets are dictating local re-use? Remember, this is not asking for an unlocked fully-functional media player, but a basic box-based OS such as Android that users can then do what they want with.

This link supports your comment. If our box gets unlocked then the Spanish box is open to being exploited. The older Spanish box at least.

Vodafone Espana launches new TV packages – Digital TV Europe

Quic Broadband

Move to New Zealand's best fibre broadband service (affiliate link). Note that to use Quic Broadband you must be comfortable with configuring your own router.

ukoda

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#2911999 9-May-2022 21:06

sansom:

No, not this! There was motivation and willingness. However, the VTV box security that was designed to assist Vodafone Group's global content deals is such that the bootloader is locked. If it were possible we would have offered it on a no-support basis.

Hamish I thank you for facing up to a group such as this, I'm sure dealing with people like me must be frustrating, but...

I would call out "content deals" as irrelevant as we are not asking to unlock the bootloader to access the existing code but to unlock it by erasing the existing environment and then flashing something completely new, giving no access to any of the existing content and related security.

That is why I am calling out the idea it is impossible. Sure, I can imagine it would be locked so it could not be updated via an external interface and had no support for self updating but the SOCs typically have way to factory program or recover. A simple example is the STM32 processors than can be forced in to factory bootloader firmware by manipulating the BOOTx lines. This allows the flash to be over written with new code. They are still securable such that the flash can not be read, only erased and over written, thus protected the old IP but not stopping new software being written.

Likewise a Rockchip RK3399, or similar, can be forced to boot from a simple internal USB bootloader by shorting out the NVM chipset line, stopping normal boot. Even devices with OTP memory can usually be reconfigured via hardware lines to boot from USB flash or an SD card, leaving any secure internal code inaccessible.

Such procedures do not leave the boxes able to have the existing apps compromised. All the existing software, and any services it can access would be lost, not hackable. You would then be trying to install something like LibreELEC Linux on it to give it a second life.

Apsattv

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#2912015 9-May-2022 21:23

I've played around looking at the vodafone box with various tools, nmap, ettercap mitm arp poisoning, fiddler on windows and various other tools etc

I even found a few rescue .bins and the stream urls etc

But I didn't get far as I don't have any linux skills, I'm sure there may be a way to "exploit" the device for future modifications.

eracode

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#2912103 10-May-2022 07:20

@sansom Will VF be monitoring the return process and actively chase up owners who have been paid out by you - but not sent their unit back to Abilities?

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Linux

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#2912106 10-May-2022 07:29

eracode:

@sansom Will VF be monitoring the return process and actively chase up owners who have been paid out by you - but not sent their unit back to Abilities?

@eracode I very much doubt it the admin of this would cost way to much, It is honestly they are hoping for

MikeB4

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#2912110 10-May-2022 07:55

Linux:

@eracode I very much doubt it the admin of this would cost way to much, It is honestly they are hoping for

Exactly this. If we want businesses to be honest then consumers must reciprocate and be honest in return.

sansom

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#2912140 10-May-2022 09:02

eracode:

@sansom Will VF be monitoring the return process and actively chase up owners who have been paid out by you - but not sent their unit back to Abilities?

As stated above, we are trusting that all available items will be returned.

Hamish

sansom

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#2912154 10-May-2022 09:42

ukoda:

Hamish I thank you for facing up to a group such as this, I'm sure dealing with people like me must be frustrating, but...

I would call out "content deals" as irrelevant...

Not a problem, I don't find it frustrating. Both Vodafone, and me personally, have invested quite a bit over the last 6 years into this latest iteration of Vodafone TV, and so I'm committed to clearing up some guesswork here that can sometimes arrive at unfair conclusions!

In terms of the relevance of content deals on the security of the box, the content deals are central to the security design. Vodafone has to provide content studios with responses to their technical questionnaires answering how the box complies with MPAA content security best practice (refer https://www.motionpictures.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/MPA-Best-Practices-Common-Guidelines-V4.10-FINAL.pdf)

In terms of your hope that the VTV Broadcom chip might retain a pin similar to the "a Rockchip RK3399, or similar, can be forced to boot from a simple internal USB bootloader by shorting out the NVM chipset line, stopping normal boot" : The Technical Questionnaires from the Studios specifically asks (and then actually verifies via testing) whether any hardware exists that allows for sideloading or rooting to occur. The Vodafone Group design removes all hardware options, test jig tags etc so that we are able to pass the studio requirements. Vodafone Group does this to ensure the best commercial position on global Sport and Entertainment content negotiations with studios and content partners.

In terms of this "particular box was an NZ-only release rather than globally-controlled", the bootloader is global and protected by Vodafone Group. The box firmware is specific to NZ, and is developed by Vodafone Group based on a common code set used in Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Romania etc. NZ shares an "IP-only" version that's very close to Vodafone Portugal's implementation. Other markets have a version that manages the integration of a live broadcast TV tuner on the box (either terrestrial or Satellite broadcast) so that they can avoid expensive content deals with the local free-to-air broadcasters (again, the technology design is often driven by the content deals).

Hamish

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#2912179 10-May-2022 10:51

IceFragmatic:

This link supports your comment. If our box gets unlocked then the Spanish box is open to being exploited. The older Spanish box at least.

Vodafone Espana launches new TV packages – Digital TV Europe

Yes, this is one of the reasons the global/common bootloader remains locked down.

Hamish

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