Illegal international termination

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wk

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#31869 2-Apr-2009 13:20

Hi,

In Europe it's illegal to terminate international minutes by dialling from a local number, however I don't know if it's the same here.
Somebody called me the other day on my mobile from the states and I got an Auckland number as caller id. As I am pretty sure it's an illegal termination, can you tell me if there's an authority that handles this things? Where can I report it?

Thanks.

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#204996 2-Apr-2009 20:50

Seems a stupid law if it does exist, and secondly, why would you report it? there is no harm as a result of this happening.

Richard rich.ms

wk

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#205008 2-Apr-2009 21:58

Do you think that theft is a stupid law? If you see someone stealing you look away or notify the police?

johnr

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#205012 2-Apr-2009 22:04

wk: Do you think that theft is a stupid law? If you see someone stealing you look away or notify the police?

How did theft come into this subject??

A company in the USA might have a PBX in AU and the calls route through it cause its cheaper

Jumping the gun here

John

wk

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#205013 2-Apr-2009 22:08

The termination fee for an international minute is way bigger than a local call. The company that is doing this is paying less than required to the new zealand company (vodafone/telecom/etc).

This is fraud, and it's a felony (at least in Europe, I don't know about NZ)

freitasm

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#205014 2-Apr-2009 22:11

I think this is for telecommunications providers, not for users.

Do you mean that everyone with a SkypeOut number in the U.S. is then commiting fraud? Or any company with a centralised VoIP system with various endpoints is commiting a crime?

ajobbins

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#205015 2-Apr-2009 22:15

Firstly, New Zealand is not America. There is no such thing as a 'felony' here.

Voice over IP is commonly used to this effect (Call is routed over the internet and terminated to the PSTN as close to the destination as possible.

Not stealing, not illegal.

There is no law about how much you should pay to terminate an international call, this is not North Korea.

Why do you think VoIP rates are so cheap?

Traditional PSTN International rates are higher becuase you are typically paying several providers to route the call, and each clips the ticket.

With VoIP you generally only need to pay the provider at the PSTN Gateway point, hence the lower cost.

dolsen

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#205017 2-Apr-2009 22:18

wk: The termination fee for an international minute is way bigger than a local call. The company that is doing this is paying less than required to the new zealand company (vodafone/telecom/etc).

This is fraud, and it's a felony (at least in Europe, I don't know about NZ)

Here's a link to a google doc of what I think WK is talking about. Don't think it's relevent in NZ.

http://72.14.235.132/search?q=cache:VRyVagW6ZDsJ:www.aptsec.org/Program/SG/Final%2520Reports%25202006-2007/Report%2520of%2520SQ2.6.doc+illegal+to+terminate+international+minutes&cd=13&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz

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johnr

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#205018 2-Apr-2009 22:19

wk: The termination fee for an international minute is way bigger than a local call. The company that is doing this is paying less than required to the new zealand company (vodafone/telecom/etc).

Incorrect sometimes

John

wk

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#205021 2-Apr-2009 22:21

I can tell you for sure that, in Europe, Telecommunications companies are filing a lot of lawsuits to companies that are doing this.
And this thing should apply to NZ, unless the telecom companies here don't really care about it.

richms

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#205022 2-Apr-2009 22:25

This strikes me as the protectionist crap laws that are so common in the EU.

If they can terminate a call for someone at a set rate, then it shouldnt matter where the other end of the call comes from since it doesnt affect the company that is in reciept of the call.

Richard rich.ms

wk

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#205024 2-Apr-2009 22:30

OK guys, thanks a lot for all the "helpful" answers.
No need to follow this issue anymore, got my answers loud and clear.

PenultimateHop

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#205033 2-Apr-2009 23:08

This is the first I've heard of this so-called law in Europe, and I have a reasonable amount of work and operations in Europe -- including terminating overseas originated call minutes into local PSTNs.

I know that that there is an equivelant law present in India and to a lesser degree Vietnam (and I think Fiji), but I have not heard of anything in Europe.

Certainly not illegal in New Zealand or Australia, and why should it be? The telecommunications companies are not bearing any additional cost in terminating the call - the VoIP carrier is doing the expensive bit for them. Since the VoIP carrier is likely to be paying quite high local termination rates, the ILECs may actually be making more money than if they were offering international interconnection rates.

sbiddle

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#205052 3-Apr-2009 06:43

wk: The termination fee for an international minute is way bigger than a local call. The company that is doing this is paying less than required to the new zealand company (vodafone/telecom/etc).

This is fraud, and it's a felony (at least in Europe, I don't know about NZ)

There was a well known case here in NZ a few years ago now where a large Telco (lets call them "Telecom") were routing a large percentage of calls from their mobile network to a competitors network (lets call them "Vodafone") via Australia rather than via NZ.

The reason for doing this was cheaper interconnect rates via Australia than terminating directly in NZ.

What you are talking about is very common, as others have pointed out. As we move towards a VoIP world it's also going to become a lot more common as carriers have the ability to have their own switching equipment in a country and terminate calls this way rather than having to pay transit providers for calls.

joshp

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#205060 3-Apr-2009 08:24

One of the issues here is that the carrier in question could be re-writing the ANI and then passing it out via the local telecom network, what we are forgetting is that New Zealand has the Kiwishare agreement which allows telco's to pass calls off into the local area with a bill and keep arrangement (basically it doesn't cost).. while I don't know if this is classed as "Illegal" it certainly isn't allowed and could be investigated.

http://wxc.co.nz

old3eyes

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#205063 3-Apr-2009 08:32

sbiddle:
wk: The termination fee for an international minute is way bigger than a local call. The company that is doing this is paying less than required to the new zealand company (vodafone/telecom/etc).

This is fraud, and it's a felony (at least in Europe, I don't know about NZ)

There was a well known case here in NZ a few years ago now where a large Telco (lets call them "Telecom") were routing a large percentage of calls from their mobile network to a competitors network (lets call them "Vodafone") via Australia rather than via NZ.

The reason for doing this was cheaper interconnect rates via Australia than terminating directly in NZ.

What you are talking about is very common, as others have pointed out. As we move towards a VoIP world it's also going to become a lot more common as carriers have the ability to have their own switching equipment in a country and terminate calls this way rather than having to pay transit providers for calls.

I can remember here at work about 6 years ago when we were on Callplus they were routing our calls to Vodafone mobiles via Canada.. The speech was crap..

Regards,

Old3eyes

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