Child free by choice or otherwise

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#1992954 10-Apr-2018 20:00

mattwnz:

Can employers discriminate on who they employ, based on whether the employee faces family responsibilities or not, such as having children, or looking after elderly parents etc? I note that in the USA, they appear to have a law they prevents this.

Probably not, but if an employer claims to have turned away a candidate for reasons relating to skills or experience then it would be very difficult to prove that discrimination around family circumstances was the true motivation.

gehenna

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#1992955 10-Apr-2018 20:04

mattwnz:
Can employers discriminate on who they employ, based on whether the employee faces family responsibilities or not, such as having children, or looking after elderly parents etc?

No they can't. If someone single/childfree experienced the treatment @DaveB espouses and was able to relate it back to the comments made in this thread, they would have a strong case for discrimination if they can prove they had the right skills for the job.

My personal experience as a manager is my staff with children are the worst at going into overages with annual and sick leave, and don't make themselves available outside of business hours. My single staff are super dedicated and motivated to the point where I need to encourage them to use leave, and I know they can be counted on for the odd job outside business hours.

I will add I always remunerate or give time in lieu for that kind of outside hours work. I'm merely commenting on my differences of experience with @DaveB

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#1993002 10-Apr-2018 21:12

DaveB:

As an employer, I would choose to commit to a "family focused individual" rather than just a "self focused individual". Any day. Without question. And with the job market the way it is, as an employer I have that choice. And I will continue to have that choice.

Experience has taught me that a potential employee with proven long term family commitments and goals, has much more to offer than any employee that quite happily demonstrates that they are only concerned about themselves.

I have to wonder if gay couples with children would meet your requirements. Do your family values extend to hiring a gay man committed to his partner and children, or a gay woman focussed on her family? Or do family values only apply to straight Christian families?

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#1993006 10-Apr-2018 21:23

gehenna:
mattwnz:

Can employers discriminate on who they employ, based on whether the employee faces family responsibilities or not, such as having children, or looking after elderly parents etc?

No they can't. If someone single/childfree experienced the treatment @DaveB espouses and was able to relate it back to the comments made in this thread, they would have a strong case for discrimination if they can prove they had the right skills for the job.

My personal experience as a manager ............. I'm merely commenting on my differences of experience with @DaveB

Differences do count and are often not considered in this stupid PC, internet world.

Consider that I (as funder and financial underwriter of MY business) may have a preference to older, more mature employees that can work within OUR current structure. A longstanding structure that includes MY and my longstanding EMPLOYEES family values!

(I've highlighted the key words for those that love to jump in without consideration of what they are replying to).

It has worked well within our small work environment for a number of years and I am very reluctant to upset that balance. Luckily, we are a small business with 6 committed staff and the minefield of dealing with new staff is far and few between (two newbies in 8 years).

Maybe that is because they are all paid extremely well. And maybe that is because they produce above average due to their individual circumstances - which I will not go into here.

My commitment is to maintain a rewarding workplace for existing staff, rather than changing it because of some politically correct Leftie Liberal expectation(s). And I will not budge on that. My staff and my business are too important than that.

gehenna

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#1993013 10-Apr-2018 21:33

Your business still has to comply with NZ Employment Law and the Equality Act 2010.

Geektastic

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#1993014 10-Apr-2018 21:33

freitasm:

DaveB:

freitasm:

@DaveB:

As an employer, I would choose to commit to a "family focused individual" rather than just a "self focused individual". Any day. Without question. And with the job market the way it is, as an employer I have that choice. And I will continue to have that choice.

Experience has taught me that a potential employee with proven long term family commitments and goals, has much more to offer than any employee that quite happily demonstrates that they are only concerned about themselves.

I guess all those conservative, family-values people that ended being outed as perverts, tax cheats, scammers are all good people?

No, having a "family commitment" doesn't make anyone better than anyone else.

I'm not sure of the exact figures in our western world, but I guess that the definition of conservatism in the modern world would equate to slightly less than 50% of the new world "order". Your opening comment suggests therefore that "All those other "non conservative, family-values people" that ended being outed as perverts, tax cheats, scammers are also all good people?

I stand by my view and choice of who I choose to employ - Yes, having a "family commitment" does bring out the best in people. I never once stated that it makes them better people. They better suit my business model.

Ok, I will change the comment then to be more explicit: over and over we see conservative, family-values people that ended being outed as perverts, tax cheats, scammers - therefore your criteria "potential employee with proven long term family commitments and goals" has no meaning at all, because there's a chance whoever you select may end up in one of the categories listed. Of course the same applies to liberals. My point however is that having a "family commitment" does not indicate what they are or do in their private lives and the impact this might have in your business.

Doesn't that amount to "all kinds of people are outed as perverts, tax cheats and scammers"?

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#1993015 10-Apr-2018 21:37

Geektastic:

Doesn't that amount to "all kinds of people are outed as perverts, tax cheats and scammers"?

That's the point he's making.

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#1993016 10-Apr-2018 21:38

DaveB:

gehenna:
mattwnz:

Can employers discriminate on who they employ, based on whether the employee faces family responsibilities or not, such as having children, or looking after elderly parents etc?

No they can't. If someone single/childfree experienced the treatment @DaveB espouses and was able to relate it back to the comments made in this thread, they would have a strong case for discrimination if they can prove they had the right skills for the job.

My personal experience as a manager ............. I'm merely commenting on my differences of experience with @DaveB

Differences do count and are often not considered in this stupid PC, internet world.

Consider that I (as funder and financial underwriter of MY business) may have a preference to older, more mature employees that can work within OUR current structure. A longstanding structure that includes MY and my longstanding EMPLOYEES family values!

(I've highlighted the key words for those that love to jump in without consideration of what they are replying to).

It has worked well within our small work environment for a number of years and I am very reluctant to upset that balance. Luckily, we are a small business with 6 committed staff and the minefield of dealing with new staff is far and few between (two newbies in 8 years).

Maybe that is because they are all paid extremely well. And maybe that is because they produce above average due to their individual circumstances - which I will not go into here.

My commitment is to maintain a rewarding workplace for existing staff, rather than changing it because of some politically correct Leftie Liberal expectation(s). And I will not budge on that. My staff and my business are too important than that.

Anti-discrimination is not "politically correct Leftie Liberal expectation" it is common sense and law.

DaveB

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#1993017 10-Apr-2018 21:39

gehenna:

Your business still has to comply with NZ Employment Law and the Equality Act 2010.

Of course it does! Well done!

EDIT: Hence I have no strong desire to grow further.

DaveB

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#1993023 10-Apr-2018 21:52

Rikkitic:

DaveB:

As an employer, I would choose to commit to a "family focused individual" rather than just a "self focused individual". Any day. Without question. And with the job market the way it is, as an employer I have that choice. And I will continue to have that choice.

Experience has taught me that a potential employee with proven long term family commitments and goals, has much more to offer than any employee that quite happily demonstrates that they are only concerned about themselves.

I have to wonder if gay couples with children would meet your requirements. Do your family values extend to hiring a gay man committed to his partner and children, or a gay woman focussed on her family? Or do family values only apply to straight Christian families?

My best friend is gay, so don't bother trying to bait me there. He would actually be a good business partner but is even more opinionated than me. I don't have time for Christianity either, so try another angle.

freitasm

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#1993026 10-Apr-2018 21:57

Geektastic:

Doesn't that amount to "all kinds of people are outed as perverts, tax cheats and scammers"?

Exactly. My point is that there's no scientific evidence a "family focused individual" is more productive than a single person or someone who's recently divorced. It's not "liberal PC" it's common sense.

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#1993035 10-Apr-2018 22:18

MikeB4:

Anti-discrimination is not "politically correct Leftie Liberal expectation" it is common sense and law.

Common sense and Law do not go hand in hand. Much like common sense and logic. Common sense can also be negatively equated to vulgar prejudice. It all depends on which side of the fence you choose to pick from.

mudguard

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#1993037 10-Apr-2018 22:39

DaveB:
MikeB4:

Anti-discrimination is not "politically correct Leftie Liberal expectation" it is common sense and law.

Common sense and Law do not go hand in hand. Much like common sense and logic. Common sense can also be negatively equated to vulgar prejudice. It all depends on which side of the fence you choose to pick from.

That may be, but all it takes is for you to ask one potential candidate their age, marital status, family situation or future family plan and they can argue that if they didn't the position then you have discriminated against them in your selection.

Geektastic

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#1993044 10-Apr-2018 23:13

mudguard:
DaveB:

MikeB4:

Anti-discrimination is not "politically correct Leftie Liberal expectation" it is common sense and law.

Common sense and Law do not go hand in hand. Much like common sense and logic. Common sense can also be negatively equated to vulgar prejudice. It all depends on which side of the fence you choose to pick from.

That may be, but all it takes is for you to ask one potential candidate their age, marital status, family situation or future family plan and they can argue that if they didn't the position then you have discriminated against them in your selection.

This suggests to me a secondary but related issue - references.

In the UK, references are very rarely issued by individuals; usually the request goes to the HR department who would send out something like

"Mr Bloggs worked for Widget for 4 years and during that time his conduct and performance were satisfactory." with a bit of fluff to top and tail it. This is because of instances (for example) where managers with a personal issue with a former employee have written very damning references resulting in legal action against the company giving the reference.

In NZ, I noted that references are often far more personal and that brings me back to your point above: what happens if the discrimination takes place in a reference?

dwilson

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#1993063 11-Apr-2018 04:41

DaveB:

Differences do count and are often not considered in this stupid PC, internet world.

Consider that I (as funder and financial underwriter of MY business) may have a preference to older, more mature employees that can work within OUR current structure. A longstanding structure that includes MY and my longstanding EMPLOYEES family values!

(I've highlighted the key words for those that love to jump in without consideration of what they are replying to).

It has worked well within our small work environment for a number of years and I am very reluctant to upset that balance. Luckily, we are a small business with 6 committed staff and the minefield of dealing with new staff is far and few between (two newbies in 8 years).

Maybe that is because they are all paid extremely well. And maybe that is because they produce above average due to their individual circumstances - which I will not go into here.

My commitment is to maintain a rewarding workplace for existing staff, rather than changing it because of some politically correct Leftie Liberal expectation(s). And I will not budge on that. My staff and my business are too important than that.

What type of business is this? Small manufacturing outfit?

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