Smash and grabs at MHJ

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#3080786 29-May-2023 12:58

A lot of talk about punishment=revenge/retribution. There may be an element of that for some, but on the whole I disagree.

The main purpose of any punishment is as a deterrent, both to those being punished to dissuade them from reoffending, and as an example to dissuade others. If the punishment is incarceration, then it also serves the purpose of physically preventing reoffending for the duration of the sentence (with the exception of crimes committed in prison).

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#3080797 29-May-2023 13:12

networkn:

elpenguino:

Ah , the myth that everyone has choices. Behind that idea is the conceit that ' I would never do things like that if I grew up in those circumstances around those people'. It's easy to take that view when you didn't grow up in the same way.

You might be surprised what bad things you (and all of us) are capable of when you're pushed and pushed.

However I'm not going to argue that humans are deterministic creatures either.

It saddens me that people in this thread would happily spend $100k per year to lock someone up but they begrudge spending half of that to help people before they end up in that situation.

Almost everyone has some choices they can make. That is not a myth. You know nothing about me, clearly, but I can assure you, I have first-hand experience of living in a household that would have fitted well inside the 10% 'poverty' line in NZ. I have a complete understanding of what I am talking about.

Are you claiming the ram raids, dairy robberies, bottle shop hold-ups, and all the other daily occurrences that have been happening the past 2 years, are people just trying to feed their starving families? I would bet a large sum of money a tiny fraction, if any at all (and I believe it would be zero), would be people stealing to keep themselves alive. This crime epidemic isn't to do with that.

I think you are drawing conclusions to suit your own internal narrative. I have repeatedly advocated for both a solution to the problem at source, but also the fact that there needs to be serious consequences for those who commit crimes. These aren't crimes of necessity, it feels more like a protest and a 'because we can' type crime wave at least partially. People were promised lots of things that haven't been delivered, that doesn't help either. Many people are angry, fed up, and disillusioned, and it's not just the poor. Kiwis have had a LOT to contend with, as if Covid and the response wasn't enough on it's own (which is irrelevant to whether you feel the response was or wasn't valid). We have had massacres, and seemingly never-ending natural disasters. There is rarely any good news. It adds up. Even the most resilient are battling away. I'd suggest the number of people as a percentage who live in NZ and feel safe, secure, happy and have a strong sense of well-being, and a positive outlook for the short to medium future, would be very very small.

Fully agree, its not because of food - in that sense crime should go down as unemployment sharply dropped over the last 2 years. I come from a country where 90% of the population lives under the povery line, I know what crime for survival looks like, this is not whats happening in NZ.

It's about gangs exploiting the younger generation, its about money and drugs, its about the latest underground tik tok fame.

Rikkitic

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#3080808 29-May-2023 13:28

It doesn't matter what it's about. What matters is that normal people keep thinking in terms of crime and punishment, but most of those who do this kind of thing don't think that way so their behaviour is not affected by threats of punishment. Just because something motivates you, does not mean it motivates the criminal. Lock 'em up is just a vote-getting slogan. It doesn't deal with the real issue. But those who want to lock them up just don't get it. They do think in terms of punishment and retribution and they are just chasing their tails. That is why nothing changes.

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#3080820 29-May-2023 14:04

Rikkitic:

It doesn't matter what it's about.

Say what? Yes it does matter and we will have no luck in fixing the problem if we dont know what its all about.

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#3080867 29-May-2023 14:11

Paul1977:

A lot of talk about punishment=revenge/retribution. There may be an element of that for some, but on the whole I disagree.

The main purpose of any punishment is as a deterrent, both to those being punished to dissuade them from reoffending, and as an example to dissuade others. If the punishment is incarceration, then it also serves the purpose of physically preventing reoffending for the duration of the sentence (with the exception of crimes committed in prison).

If punishment is for deterrent then it is an absolute failure. For centuries humans have used death, mutilation, transportation, exile, imprisonment and so on and yet crime still continues. The quote wrongfully attributed to Einstein sums this up well ‘‘Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.”

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#3080886 29-May-2023 14:46

@MikeB4, what outcomes do you recommend for Lewis?

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Rikkitic

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#3080891 29-May-2023 14:54

Wombat1:

Rikkitic:

It doesn't matter what it's about.

Say what? Yes it does matter and we will have no luck in fixing the problem if we dont know what its all about.

My comment was in response to this: "A lot of talk about punishment=revenge/retribution. There may be an element of that for some, but on the whole I disagree."

It doesn't matter what punishment is about - revenge/retribution incarceration. It doesn't matter what excuse is tied to the punishment. It matters how that punishment is perceived by the punished and how they are affected by it. That is the point I am making.

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#3080896 29-May-2023 15:04

Rikkitic:

They do think in terms of punishment and retribution and they are just chasing their tails. That is why nothing changes.

Crime is at an all-time high and consequences are at an all-time low. Changes are happening, but they are almost exclusively bad.

networkn

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#3080899 29-May-2023 15:06

Rikkitic:

My comment was in response to this: "A lot of talk about punishment=revenge/retribution. There may be an element of that for some, but on the whole I disagree."

It doesn't matter what punishment is about - revenge/retribution incarceration. It doesn't matter what excuse is tied to the punishment. It matters how that punishment is perceived by the punished and how they are affected by it. That is the point I am making.

When is punishment OK then? Never? We just excuse everything because the crim's are just victims of circumstance?

MikeB4

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#3080901 29-May-2023 15:13

cokemaster: @MikeB4, what outcomes do you recommend for Lewis?

I am not going to get drawn into discussion about individual cases.

MikeB4

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#3080902 29-May-2023 15:19

@networkn no one is advocating no consequences for crime. Your response to @Rikkitic is an attempt at Reductio ad Absurdum.

What I am postulating is society needs to address the root causes of crime especially those of theft etc as a means of sustainable prevention.

Paul1977

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#3080904 29-May-2023 15:21

MikeB4:

If punishment is for deterrent then it is an absolute failure. For centuries humans have used death, mutilation, transportation, exile, imprisonment and so on and yet crime still continues. The quote wrongfully attributed to Einstein sums this up well ‘‘Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.”

Punishment as a deterrent is only a failure if crime rates wouldn't increase in it's absence. I don't think anyone could make that argument with a straight face.

It's certainly isn't a solution on it's own, as you've quite rightly pointed out; but that doesn't mean that it's not a necessary part of a functioning society.

Paul1977

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#3080909 29-May-2023 15:28

Rikkitic:

It doesn't matter what it's about. What matters is that normal people keep thinking in terms of crime and punishment, but most of those who do this kind of thing don't think that way so their behaviour is not affected by threats of punishment. Just because something motivates you, does not mean it motivates the criminal. Lock 'em up is just a vote-getting slogan. It doesn't deal with the real issue. But those who want to lock them up just don't get it. They do think in terms of punishment and retribution and they are just chasing their tails. That is why nothing changes.

Are you arguing that anyone who commits any crime doesn't think like a "normal" person? I'd wager most thefts, ram raids, smash & grabs, etc are committed by perfectly normal people who would consider consequences. If we were talking about murder & rape then that's a different matter entirely, but that's not what this thread is about (or not how it started anyway).

networkn

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#3080910 29-May-2023 15:30

MikeB4: @networkn no one is advocating no consequences for crime. Your response to @Rikkitic is an attempt at Reductio ad Absurdum.

What I am postulating is society needs to address the root causes of crime especially those of theft etc as a means of sustainable prevention.

No more so than her own reduction of punishment to retribution.

You aren't advocating for anything that most others here aren't also advocating for. The problem is that dealing with the issue at source is a long-term project, in a county besieged by large numbers of high-priority issues. In the meantime, we need to effectively reduce crime.

I see nothing in the pipeline to do that.

Rikkitic

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#3080914 29-May-2023 15:38

Paul1977:

Are you arguing that anyone who commits any crime doesn't think like a "normal" person? I'd wager most thefts, ram raids, smash & grabs, etc are committed by perfectly normal people who would consider consequences. If we were talking about murder & rape then that's a different matter entirely, but that's not what this thread is about (or not how it started anyway).

A kid just died and others are in hospital because they didn't think about consequences. I am arguing that young people who commit these sorts of crimes don't think like you do.

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