Article on Stuff opens a can of religious and secular worms!

Forums › Off topic › Article on Stuff opens a can of religious and secular worms!

1 | ... | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12

2385 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#1009922 20-Mar-2014 15:14

Sidestep:
Klipspringer:
Sidestep:
Klipspringer:
Sidestep:

Well there's been a bit of debate for a fair while about what human nature leans to.. much of it predating Christianity.

It leans towards doing good. Human nature cannot lean towards evil because actually there really is no such thing as evil. Its good that creates evil. Ie people do evil bad things, because they want something thats good. Evil is only here because we have good morals. Each person that commits even the worst unimaginable crimes, do so for the good of themselves.

I cant think of anything evil which does not have something good as its motivator. Hence human nature always leans to doing good, or achieving something good, even if its self centered.

What is "good"?

LOL you got me mate ...

Thats the real question ... And hence instead of having morals we should have no morals. Lets get rid of them entirely.

If we want to set morals. What do we base them on?

That's exactly the question we should ask our kids in school

But the kids are already in school, in a system, with morals which dictates good and bad ...

Anyway, I think as long as there is free will to choose ones morals we fine, each should be able to choose whichever morals he/she wishes to accept. That means, religion in schools should not be forced on anyone. But at the same time, the opportunity of having it there should not be taken away. Those that want to base their morals on christianitly should be allowed to do so. Those that want to base theirs on being muslim should be allowed the same.

Its part of the bigger picture of how our free country works. Its the privilege we have living in a free country! Why should it be different in schools?

KiwiNZ: I think Articles 13 and 15 of the Bill of Rights Act 1990 sums it up

"13 Freedom of thought, conscience, and religion
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience, religion, and belief, including the right to adopt and to hold opinions without interference.

15 Manifestation of religion and belief
Every person has the right to manifest that person's religion or belief in worship, observance, practice, or teaching, either individually or in community with others, and either in public or in private."

People are free to hold or not to hold religious belief, so being compelled to hold a believe is contrary to that act be it for or against relies belief.

As per KiwiNZ's post. Why would we want to deny the above privileges from our kids at our schools?

Any teacher or school that denies the above freedom to kids at school is actually denying the kids their own rights.

MikeB4

18435 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#1009933 20-Mar-2014 15:36

Klipspringer:
Sidestep:
Klipspringer:
Sidestep:
Klipspringer:
Sidestep:

Well there's been a bit of debate for a fair while about what human nature leans to.. much of it predating Christianity.

It leans towards doing good. Human nature cannot lean towards evil because actually there really is no such thing as evil. Its good that creates evil. Ie people do evil bad things, because they want something thats good. Evil is only here because we have good morals. Each person that commits even the worst unimaginable crimes, do so for the good of themselves.

I cant think of anything evil which does not have something good as its motivator. Hence human nature always leans to doing good, or achieving something good, even if its self centered.

What is "good"?

LOL you got me mate ...

Thats the real question ... And hence instead of having morals we should have no morals. Lets get rid of them entirely.

If we want to set morals. What do we base them on?

That's exactly the question we should ask our kids in school

But the kids are already in school, in a system, with morals which dictates good and bad ...

Anyway, I think as long as there is free will to choose ones morals we fine, each should be able to choose whichever morals he/she wishes to accept. That means, religion in schools should not be forced on anyone. But at the same time, the opportunity of having it there should not be taken away. Those that want to base their morals on christianitly should be allowed to do so. Those that want to base theirs on being muslim should be allowed the same.

Its part of the bigger picture of how our free country works. Its the privilege we have living in a free country! Why should it be different in schools?

KiwiNZ: I think Articles 13 and 15 of the Bill of Rights Act 1990 sums it up

"13 Freedom of thought, conscience, and religion
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience, religion, and belief, including the right to adopt and to hold opinions without interference.

15 Manifestation of religion and belief
Every person has the right to manifest that person's religion or belief in worship, observance, practice, or teaching, either individually or in community with others, and either in public or in private."

People are free to hold or not to hold religious belief, so being compelled to hold a believe is contrary to that act be it for or against relies belief.

As per KiwiNZ's post. Why would we want to deny the above privileges from our kids at our schools?

Any teacher or school that denies the above freedom to kids at school is actually denying the kids their own rights.

There is alternatives to school, denying religious activity outside school would breach human rights, stopping the instruction in main stream school but providing facilities at the school to allow voluntary out of school hours activity complies with the bill.

Sidestep

1013 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#1009938 20-Mar-2014 15:46

Let them question the school, the system, the morals which dictate good and bad.
Rather than “rote” learning, teach them how to learn.
Like the old adage “give a man a fish”..

Klipspringer

2385 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#1009939 20-Mar-2014 15:46

KiwiNZ:
There is alternatives to school, denying religious activity outside school would breach human rights, stopping the instruction in main stream school but providing facilities at the school to allow voluntary out of school hours activity complies with the bill.

"Every person has the right to manifest that person's religion or belief in worship, observance, practice, or teaching, either individually or in community with others, and either in public or in private."

As long as the right to practice the religion is not taken away during school hours I agree there is no breach of the bill.

But if for instance there are a group of kids who for instance want to get together for some worship during break time or something, that should be allowed too. And as per the bill, its allowed even in public. SO I agree with your point. I just dont agree it should only be allowed after hours.

Not teaching religion is in no ways violating anything. Taking it out of school is fine, but denying it completely is most certainly a violation of rights.

ubergeeknz

3344 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Vocus

#1009957 20-Mar-2014 15:57

Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ:
There is alternatives to school, denying religious activity outside school would breach human rights, stopping the instruction in main stream school but providing facilities at the school to allow voluntary out of school hours activity complies with the bill.

"Every person has the right to manifest that person's religion or belief in worship, observance, practice, or teaching, either individually or in community with others, and either in public or in private."

As long as the right to practice the religion is not taken away during school hours I agree there is no breach of the bill.

But if for instance there are a group of kids who for instance want to get together for some worship during break time or something, that should be allowed too. And as per the bill, its allowed even in public. SO I agree with your point. I just dont agree it should only be allowed after hours.

Not teaching religion is in no ways violating anything. Taking it out of school is fine, but denying it completely is most certainly a violation of rights.

I think you are misunderstanding the scope of the opposition to RI in schools.

The problems I personally have with the current RI regime are:

1. That schools are "closing" during normal class hours for Religious Instruction
2. That parents are at worst not informed, or at best misinformed about the content of classes
3. That parents must opt-out to not have their children receive Religious Instruction; ie. children are given Religious Instruction - by untrained volunteers of the Church - by default.
4. That children opted-out are often not given good alternatives to the RI.

If the local Church or Christian organisation wanted to run RI during lunch time, and on an opt-in basis, I don't see any problem with that.

MikeB4

18435 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#1009963 20-Mar-2014 16:03

Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ:
There is alternatives to school, denying religious activity outside school would breach human rights, stopping the instruction in main stream school but providing facilities at the school to allow voluntary out of school hours activity complies with the bill.

"Every person has the right to manifest that person's religion or belief in worship, observance, practice, or teaching, either individually or in community with others, and either in public or in private."

As long as the right to practice the religion is not taken away during school hours I agree there is no breach of the bill.

But if for instance there are a group of kids who for instance want to get together for some worship during break time or something, that should be allowed too. And as per the bill, its allowed even in public. SO I agree with your point. I just dont agree it should only be allowed after hours.

Not teaching religion is in no ways violating anything. Taking it out of school is fine, but denying it completely is most certainly a violation of rights.

By after hours I mean outside core teaching time, that is breaks,lunch and after school

Batman

Mad Scientist
29763 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1009968 20-Mar-2014 16:10

I don't think you can say closing normal classes for RI - you could call it extracurricular, but what is a normal class?

they teach women studies, politics, culture, anthropology, philosophy, religious studies, etc in the university albeit with syllabus etc

you could say the RI has no syllabus and run by non academics, but so is sex education

Quic Broadband

Move to New Zealand's best fibre broadband service (affiliate link). Free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE. Note that to use Quic Broadband you must be comfortable with configuring your own router.

MikeB4

18435 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#1009973 20-Mar-2014 16:15

joker97: I don't think you can say closing normal classes for RI - you could call it extracurricular, but what is a normal class?

they teach women studies, politics, culture, anthropology, philosophy, religious studies, etc in the university albeit with syllabus etc

you could say the RI has no syllabus and run by non academics, but so is sex education

University is entirely optional, Primary and post Primary school is not optional so R.I should not form part of the classroom activity.

ubergeeknz

3344 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Vocus

#1009975 20-Mar-2014 16:17

joker97: I don't think you can say closing normal classes for RI - you could call it extracurricular, but what is a normal class?

they teach women studies, politics, culture, anthropology, philosophy, religious studies, etc in the university albeit with syllabus etc

you could say the RI has no syllabus and run by non academics, but so is sex education

What point are you trying to make? That RI is nothing at all like any of the other things you listed? Then you are correct, sir! Except that you compare it to Sex Education, which is in fact part of the NZ Curriculum.

farcus

1554 posts

Uber Geek

#1009978 20-Mar-2014 16:19

. . .

you could say the RI has no syllabus and run by non academics, but so is sex education

actually, everything taught in primary schools is part of the NZ Curriculum (including sex education (which is incorporated into the Health curriculum))
Religious Education is not part of the NZ Curriculum which is why when it is taught in primary schools - that class is officially closed for the duration.

Linuxluver

5828 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Subscriber

#1010096 20-Mar-2014 19:42

geekiegeek: The final statement says it all for me.

"If our children are to be truly educated about religion, then they must learn about the multiple faiths and perspectives of our world, not a single faith from an evangelical perspective."

Perhaps have people from different faiths provide their perspective on alternate weeks to balance things out.

Agreed. The "religious studies" at state schools is nothing than thinly disguised recruiting by the local god-botherers. Not qualified teachers. A small sample of "Charter schools" quality of tuition.

That they "close" the school gives the game away.

I used to tell my kids if the school is closed, come home.

"We aren't allowed to!"

Yeah...."closed"....right. The principal was also a leading figure in the "church" that used the school hall on Sundays.

By the time it began to REALLY annoy me my kids weren't doing it any more. It seems fairly obvious some religious groups target a school....then take it over.

_____________________________________________________________________

I've been on Geekzone over 16 years..... Time flies....

JimmyH

2886 posts

Uber Geek

#1010178 20-Mar-2014 21:19

gzt:
JimmyH: On the other hand, in many parts of the world, those who produce evidence that conflicts with religious theory (call it doctrine if you will) tend to get persecuted, jailed or killed. Like poor old Galileo at the hands of the Catholics.

You put that very badly. Galileo was himself a Catholic believer and would have seen himself as being harassed by the ignorant, not Catholics. I agree the exact same problem occurs today for people of many religions. The findings of Galileo were not in conflict with the founder of his religion at all.

Actually, I don't think I put it either badly or inaccurately.

After he interpreted what he saw in his telescope he was made to turn himself in to the Holy Office for trial for holding the belief that the Earth revolves around the Sun - deemed a heretical belief by the Catholic Church. After which his book was banned, and he was imprisoned for years and forced to repeat psalms every day. Then he spent the rest of his life under house arrest. Surely being harassed, arrested, convicted and jailed for life by an official organ of the Catholic Church can fairly be claimed to be persecution by Catholics?

But there are plenty of other examples, involving other churches, if you don't like the Gallileo one. Try, for instance, saying that you don't believe the Koran - that will get you killed in a fair number of countries.

On the other hand the reward for falsifying a major scientific theory (say, Gravity) would be fame, and possibly a Nobel prize.

BurningBeard

1030 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#1010186 20-Mar-2014 21:27

networkn: I believe that religion plays an important part of an upbringing. I do understand some terrible things have been done or are done in the name of religions, but for a huge number of people, they use it as a guideline for behaving better, and it gives them comfort and peace, and at the end of the day, I don't see the harm in it.

I come from a secular household knowing right from wrong with absolutely no religious interference whatsoever.

I find it a bit disturbing that people need a celestial father dictator, the threat of punishment, and carrot-on-a-stick rewards, in order to behave in a way that doesn't harm others.

And even it does keep some people on the straight-and-narrow, who really need that guidance... that doesn't make it true.
If we're to teach Christianity to children then we owe it to the other religions/myths to do the same. That's just impractical and absurd.

Religion might bring comfort and peace to a Christian. Alcohol also does the same for an alcoholic. Heroin does the same for a junkie.

My very metal Doctor Who theme

Coil

6614 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#1010189 20-Mar-2014 21:31

BurningBeard:
networkn: I believe that religion plays an important part of an upbringing. I do understand some terrible things have been done or are done in the name of religions, but for a huge number of people, they use it as a guideline for behaving better, and it gives them comfort and peace, and at the end of the day, I don't see the harm in it.

I come from a secular household knowing right from wrong with absolutely no religious interference whatsoever.

I find it a bit disturbing that people need a celestial father dictator, the threat of punishment, and carrot-on-a-stick rewards, in order to behave in a way that doesn't harm others.

And even it does keep some people on the straight-and-narrow, who really need that guidance... that doesn't make it true.
If we're to teach Christianity to children then we owe it to the other religions/myths to do the same. That's just impractical and absurd.

Religion might bring comfort and peace to a Christian. Alcohol also does the same for an alcoholic. Heroin does the same for a junkie.

I like this:
My heavy metal version of the Doctor Who theme
My surf guitar version of the Doctor Who theme

BurningBeard

1030 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#1010200 20-Mar-2014 21:40

TimA:
I like this:
My heavy metal version of the Doctor Who theme
My surf guitar version of the Doctor Who theme

Wicked, cheers man!

My very metal Doctor Who theme

1 | ... | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12