Do you believe in race specific grants and scholarships?

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186 posts

Master Geek

#800316 16-Apr-2013 16:31

I have seen scholarships have different amounts for different races. Like one which awarded double to Maoris.

I guess you could call it discrimination/an incentive from which ever way you look at it. But all I know is someone is giving their money away, don't they have the right to choose the person? Even if they base it on race, and it may not be fair, it's still their money/choice...

NZtechfreak

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#800317 16-Apr-2013 16:33

1080p: We live in an equal society where every person has the same chances as another when it comes to education. This is especially true in tertiary education given that the only requirement for a student loan is that you pass...

If you believe everyone in our society has the same chances as everyone else where education is concerned I don't know what to say you to, that view is so clearly divorced from the actual reality of the world it's delusional.

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1080p

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#800318 16-Apr-2013 16:34

NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:
(Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior or superior.)

Curious why this definition for racism was included in the first post? Clearly irrelevant to the subject of these scholarships, since they are not making any judgements or statements "a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior or superior".

This issue is more one of racial discrimination. "Hey, you're $race. You may apply for this money!"

1080p

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#800319 16-Apr-2013 16:35

Cloudmelon: I have seen scholarships have different amounts for different races. Like one which awarded double to Maoris.

I guess you could call it discrimination/an incentive from which ever way you look at it. But all I know is someone is giving their money away, don't they have the right to choose the person? Even if they base it on race, and it may not be fair, it's still their money/choice...

I'd love to pay my Maori employees twice that of my other employees. I can't see any reason that might be wrong.

1080p

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#800320 16-Apr-2013 16:36

NZtechfreak:
1080p: We live in an equal society where every person has the same chances as another when it comes to education. This is especially true in tertiary education given that the only requirement for a student loan is that you pass...

If you believe everyone in our society has the same chances as everyone else where education is concerned I don't know what to say you to, that view is so clearly divorced from the actual reality of the world it's delusional.

Fire away. Feel free to educate me on the inequality in our education system.

NZtechfreak

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#800325 16-Apr-2013 16:39

1080p:
NZtechfreak:
1080p: We live in an equal society where every person has the same chances as another when it comes to education. This is especially true in tertiary education given that the only requirement for a student loan is that you pass...

If you believe everyone in our society has the same chances as everyone else where education is concerned I don't know what to say you to, that view is so clearly divorced from the actual reality of the world it's delusional.

Fire away. Feel free to educate me on the inequality in our education system.

The problem isn't in the education system per se, there are wider societal problems that are barriers to access before you even get that far (again that goes to the problem of your first proposition - we do not live in an equal society).

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Cambo

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Master Geek

#800333 16-Apr-2013 16:54

I agree that everyone in NZ has the same opportunities, but circumstances dictate people's ability to get to the opportunities.

The way people live, what they believe, how they are raised, and with what kind of standards/ethics, will affect how far they go in education (if at all).

Kid A is raised in a back-country, ex-logging town, which has a poorly supplied library, very little internet access, parents who don't show the correct kind of motivation or encouragement. Lets give this kid an insufficient diet, poor housing (draft and cold etc) and an unsettled family life. Kid A is not likely to be exposed to a good role model.

Kid B is just as poor, but lives in the suburbs. Frequent trips to the local library has broadened Kid B's knowledge, and a hunger for geography. Kid B's parents don't earn alot, so Kid B often has to miss school trips, camps, and can't afford a few items which would greatly assist in learning. Despite this, a happy home life and encouragement from nana and grandpa have helped greatly in Kid B's educational aspirations.

Both kids are ranked just as poor as the other, but each have differing circumstances which will largely affect the outcome of their future.

I do think it's unfair for the 'racism' card to be thrown around. I wonder if anyone has seen how some kids are living, then you'd understand whether they have a future or not.
I dare you to have a slice of bread for dinner, no breakfast the following morning, go to work looking dishevelled and poorly dressed. See if you can concentrate and do your duties as required by your employer. It's not the kids fault. They can't apply for different parents, better food, a dryer home, more sleep, etc etc.
Sometimes life is not fair, and some people really do need a helping hand.

Note: There are also scholarships available for poor white kids. I was gunning for two of them.

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sleemanj

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#800335 16-Apr-2013 16:55

Yes I supported targeted grants and scholarships, not only on ethnicity but it's a reasonable base level given the socio-economic differences evident along ethnicity.

Many of us here, actually nearly all of us here, are probably middle class people, from decent backgrounds, most of us will never have gone hungry, will have been encouraged to attend school, will have been helped along our way.

In a time years ago, I saw the other side of society often, and I would see the children, and wonder "what chance do you have of escaping the life you have been born into, of achieving success in a job, let alone greatness in a field". Sadly, a large proportion of that part of society is of a minority ethnicity, Maori, Pacific Islander largely, but also others.

If targeting a scholarship to such an ethnicity allows somebody who may not be in the running for an equivalent "open" scholarship because the same opportunities were not presented and thus they have not achieved greater than the overwhelmingly larger number of opponents, then I say target it to give them a chance.

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MikeB4

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#800340 16-Apr-2013 17:02

Education in NZ is not equal, the opportunities are not equal, affirmative actions to try and address the inequalities are to be encouraged and applauded.

Handle9

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#800359 16-Apr-2013 17:26

To me this is the best possible way of targeting groups that are clearly over represented in the negative statistics. This is one of those hand up, not hand out, stories. Is it better to offer targeted education or untargetted benefits?

Disclaimer: My wife is half maori (with a university degree that she got without any scholarships) and from one of the poorest rural communities in the country. Sadly she is decidedly atypical where she grew up as 80% of people don't finish high school.

boby55

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#800369 16-Apr-2013 17:55

It's a touchy subject so I don't want to get into it much but,

Due to my parents wage (Both secondary school teachers), I could not get any allowance as they earned over the $80k combined fresh hold to get anything so I had to get support from them to live as I was only entitled to $160/week from my student loan, Yet my friend who was of the specific race who's parents were both on $100k+ salary's each was getting $340 a week on the allowance which he wasn't required to pay back as he was classed as "At Risk".

In the other extent tho, There are students who's parents can't support them as they struggle themselves and they need these grants but I think there needs to be some sort of middle point where race shouldn't matter.

Just my 2cents worth

JimmyH

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#800380 16-Apr-2013 18:53

Cambo:

Kid A is raised in a back-country, ex-logging town, which has a poorly supplied library [...]

Kid B is just as poor, but lives in the suburbs [...]

And assume Kid A is white and Kid B is brown. Kid A gets told "sorry, you are disqualified from the $XXX scholarship because of your skin colour, so we will give it to Kid B".

Still think it's fair?

Wade

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#800399 16-Apr-2013 18:59

Back in the day it was possible for people to get into courses with a lower number of credits under certain ethnic grants, i see this as very flawed however if we are talking purelyt financial grants then it is a fantastic solution to a long standing problem

ajobbins

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#800413 16-Apr-2013 19:09

boby55: It's a touchy subject so I don't want to get into it much but,

Due to my parents wage (Both secondary school teachers), I could not get any allowance as they earned over the $80k combined fresh hold to get anything so I had to get support from them to live as I was only entitled to $160/week from my student loan, Yet my friend who was of the specific race who's parents were both on $100k+ salary's each was getting $340 a week on the allowance which he wasn't required to pay back as he was classed as "At Risk".

In the other extent tho, There are students who's parents can't support them as they struggle themselves and they need these grants but I think there needs to be some sort of middle point where race shouldn't matter.

Just my 2cents worth

Not so much scholarships, but I do think the student allowance system is broken. Like you, my parents earned (barely) enough to push them over the threshold for me qualifying for a student allowance. All I could do was borrow the $150 a week. Parents weren't in a position to give me any financial assistance, and they live in Napier (where there is no Uni), so I was living in Wellington while I studied.

I had to get a job to cover the difference between my living costs and the $150 a week I could borrow. I knew a bunch of people however who were entitled to a stuent allowance, in almost all cases well over $200 a week, that they didn't have to pay back, which was more than I could even borrow.

Most of those I knew who were getting an allowance were getting it because their parents genuinely earned less than the limit. A few however were getting it because their parents had businesses or trusts that allowed them to mask their true personal income, and therefore qualified.

What annoyed me the most about this situation was that people who has as much support as me from their hard working parents got a handout I wasn't entitled to. I am paying back thousands of dollars of borrowed money they got for free. What's worse is that most of them didn't have to work. Many of them dropped out of uni, or are still there years later.

While I was balancing a job and uni, many of them were balancing nights out drinking with courses they never finished. My close friends on allowances had very healthy social lives - far more than I had time for.

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Stan

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#800418 16-Apr-2013 19:15

LookingUp: IMHO, it depends on where the money is coming from.

If a particular segment of society is funding the scholarship then they should be able to set the selection criteria. On the other hand, if it's taxpayer funded then it should be open to all.

Definitely agree with the above.

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