ZOMG we need those anti-terror surveillance laws right now!

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ajobbins

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#1203283 24-Dec-2014 15:32

KiwiNZ: So you don't really know you are dealing in FUD and Government employee bashing.

I'm dealing in deductive reasoning based on known facts and actions to date.

Your argument is based entirely on FUD and the unsubstantiated assumption that mass spying will prevent even one act of terrorism.

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SaltyNZ

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#1203330 24-Dec-2014 17:02

ajobbins:

Your argument is based entirely on FUD and the ~~unsubstantiated assumption~~ provably false assumption that mass spying will prevent even one act of terrorism.

FTFY

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Ruphus

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#1203482 24-Dec-2014 23:19

KiwiNZ:
rhy7s:
KiwiNZ:

I trust our Government despite the FUD that is often pontificated by the likes of Hager, Dotcom etc etc etc.

Do you trust the process? Or the people? If the people, would you trust the procedures if they were followed by people you didn't trust?

A few things to consider from the past here (Hubertus Knabe on TED).

I trust the people and the process. As for your link, you do know we live in New Zealand right?

Should we not learn from the mistakes of other governments and try not to make the same mistakes ourselves?

MikeB4

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#1203522 25-Dec-2014 07:19

As this thread is getting personal and insulting, refer two posts up. I am now out of this discussion merry christmas and farvel

freitasm

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#1203524 25-Dec-2014 07:22

The post KiwiNZ refers too has been removed.

freitasm

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#1204404 27-Dec-2014 10:12

freitasm:
KiwiNZ: Because doing little gives you only the chance to achieve little. I am prepared and trust our government to do what it deems right to protect our people. And 99 percent of the population will see no affect or change to their lives.

Here is the thing: a lot of people don't trust The Government for different reasons. In my case I don't trust a government to be competent enough with data collected about myself or anyone else, to secure it in a way that it cannot be used for anything else by anyone else.

And please don't confuse patriotism with government support - these are very different things.

On Christmas Eve the NSA published twelve years of documents showing how they broke the law by spying on US citizens without proper authorisation, or used the data incorrectly.

"On Christmas Eve, the NSA quietly dropped 12 years worth of internal reports on surveillance that may have broken laws, including reports that were illegally withheld and the subject of a FOIA lawsuit in 2009. "The heavily-redacted reports include examples of data on Americans being e-mailed to unauthorized recipients, stored in unsecured computers and retained after it was supposed to be destroyed, according to the documents. ... In a 2012 case, for example, an NSA analyst 'searched her spouse’s personal telephone directory without his knowledge to obtain names and telephone numbers for targeting,' according to one report (PDF). The analyst 'has been advised to cease her activities,' it said. Other unauthorized cases were a matter of human error, not intentional misconduct. Last year, an analyst 'mistakenly requested' surveillance 'of his own personal identifier instead of the selector associated with a foreign intelligence target,' according to another report." Here's there list of reports going back to 2001."

The reports: https://www.nsa.gov/public_info/declass/IntelligenceOversightBoard.shtml

Some will say that "new laws won't allow this to happen" but we know well systems are designed and maintained by humans and errors/mistakes/intentional abuse happens, as evident from the links above.

We all know the New Zealand government seems to have a pechant for passing laws to make legal some of the illegal acts not covered by laws.

No, I don't think we need more laws. We need better vetting of people working intelligence, we need more intelligent people working intelligence (yes, pun intended), we need more oversight and transparency. We don't need to know who is under surveillance all the time on a public list but we need to have an independent body that will say YES/NO to start surveillance on targeted individuals, not the entire population and this body needs to be accountable and issue periodic reports - if not with names at least with success/failure ratios and approved/denied requests by government officials.

We don't need a culture of fear like the ones in North Korea where country comes first, family last. We don't need a Ministry for State Security and all the horrors it brings.

freitasm

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#1222747 26-Jan-2015 21:23

Mass Surveillance Will Not Stop Terrorism. Statistics:

"Mass data collectors can dig deeply into anyone’s digital persona but don’t have the resources to do so with everyone. Surveillance of the entire population, the vast majority of whom are innocent, leads to the diversion of limited intelligence resources in pursuit of huge numbers of false leads. Terrorists are comparatively rare, so finding one is a needle-in-a-haystack problem. You don’t make it easier by throwing more needleless hay on the stack."

"Even if your magic terrorist-catching machine has a false positive rate of 1 in 1,000—and no security technology comes anywhere near this—every time you asked it for suspects in the U.K. it would flag 60,000 innocent people."

Applying this rate to New Zealand it means mass surveillance could flag 4,000 innocent people.

Why Does the NSA Engage in Mass Surveillance of Americans When It’s Statistically Impossible for Such Spying to Detect Terrorists?

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DarthKermit

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#1222912 27-Jan-2015 03:02

freitasm: Mass Surveillance Will Not Stop Terrorism. Statistics:

"Mass data collectors can dig deeply into anyone’s digital persona but don’t have the resources to do so with everyone. Surveillance of the entire population, the vast majority of whom are innocent, leads to the diversion of limited intelligence resources in pursuit of huge numbers of false leads. Terrorists are comparatively rare, so finding one is a needle-in-a-haystack problem. You don’t make it easier by throwing more needleless hay on the stack."

"Even if your magic terrorist-catching machine has a false positive rate of 1 in 1,000—and no security technology comes anywhere near this—every time you asked it for suspects in the U.K. it would flag 60,000 innocent people."

Applying this rate to New Zealand it means mass surveillance could flag 4,000 innocent people.

Why Does the NSA Engage in Mass Surveillance of Americans When It’s Statistically Impossible for Such Spying to Detect Terrorists?

Why do agencies like the NSA and the DEA (Drug Enforcement Agency) engage in what they do?

I suspect it's to simply justify their own existence and their nice fat annual budgets. In the case of the latter agency, it is widely acknowledged in America that the War on Drugs is a colossal failure, but they still keep doing exactly the same when it comes to enforcement!

Whatifthespacekeyhadneverbeeninvented?

Linuxluver

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#1223644 27-Jan-2015 22:08

Why do agencies like the NSA and the DEA (Drug Enforcement Agency) engage in what they do?

I suspect it's to simply justify their own existence and their nice fat annual budgets. In the case of the latter agency, it is widely acknowledged in America that the War on Drugs is a colossal failure, but they still keep doing exactly the same when it comes to enforcement!

They need all these agencies to keep the private prisons full.

Keeping more people in jail for longer has been a growth industry in the US for years. We're doing it here now, too. National tried it in the 90s....Labour got rid of it...and then National brought it back again.

Mining the taxpayer purse for private profit is on the global conservative agenda.

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freitasm

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#1233132 8-Feb-2015 21:04

From Open Rights Group's The real impact of surveillance:

Yet for many people surveillance makes them less safe: it's not the security blanket politicians are holding it up to be. Job-seekers under surveillance can lose income needed to survive if their online activity fails to match up to job search demands. People interested in campaigning hestiate (sic) over getting involved with movements for social justice when the police count activism as akin to domestic terrorism.

It’s clear that surveillance affects a broad group of people, with real painful consequences for their lives. We’ve seen journalists being monitored, lawyers having their client confidentiality broken, victims of police misconduct being spied on and environmental campaigns infiltrated. These people are not criminals, and yet when we have a system of mass surveillance, they become targets for increasingly intrusive powers.

When ORG defends privacy, we are fighting to protect people from abuses of power that leave them vulnerable.

This is why the steady drip of anti-terror laws that give the police and spies more and more surveillance powers saddens and scares me. Surveillance plays a huge role in shutting people down, attacking those already discriminated against and hurting those who try and change the status quo.

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