Do you believe in race specific grants and scholarships?

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2886 posts

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#800464 16-Apr-2013 20:16

Wade: Back in the day it was possible for people to get into courses with a lower number of credits under certain ethnic grants, i see this as very flawed however if we are talking purelyt financial grants then it is a fantastic solution to a long standing problem

No, it isn't!

Being eligible or disqualified from something irrespective of your ability and circumstances, purely because of your ethnicity, is distasteful and wrong. It's outright racism - and up there with saying skin colour should determine housing, pay, or whether you can sit on a particular park bench.

deadlyllama

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#800492 16-Apr-2013 20:49

Cambo: I've abandoned two long posts typed up in response to this thread.

Same here. Well, they were probably shorter. Let's try for a third go...

I'm white-middle-class, work in IT.

I was lucky, my parents (along with some help from my grandparents who have an insanely generous pension -- not in NZ I would add) paid for my undergraduate degree, and I could live at home during that time. They also supported my brother. My thesis supervisor had funding, so I got a scholarship from that which paid the bills for most of my Masters degree. I had well-paying part time work too, which gave me some nice savings I then had to spend when my scholarship ran out. Writing up is hard.

But I know that's pretty rare. Others on this thread tell stories of parents who earn significantly more than mine who still couldn't or wouldn't support their studies. I still don't know how that works; I had a friend at uni who was in a similar situation, but never asked sufficiently prying questions. My vague theory was that his parents must have had a really massive mortgage or something.

I've also done voluntary work, helping to run kids clubs in council flats near where I lived. That was a real eye opener -- it's fair to say that before then I didn't know any really poor people. Suffice to say that I wouldn't deny them anything in terms of educational funding, they need all the help they can get. Racial targetting of scholarships would have helped at least some of them.

I've also met people who come from terrible backgrounds. Some of them are really smart but due to background or other events outside their control, got stuck in a bad situation. There are people who can climb out of that well but it's a long hard climb and so so easy to fall back down. And there are people who will never make it. How much hope do you have of "succeeding" if you had your first drink before you started school, or your parents supplied you with hard drugs before you started high school?

When you say "Racism! I want my fair share!" you're ignoring history. We're not all on a level playing field. We never were. Race-targetted scholarships are one way to redress the violence done in the past to groups who figure disproportionately in the bottom of the heap. Yeah, it feels stink when you realise you're not eligible for a few scholarships. And maybe not everyone who gets those scholarships will be a shining light of deservedness. But them's the breaks. You're part of a group that has taken far more than its fair share for a long time. Mildly tilting the playing field in favour of those who have been disadvantaged may not be "equal", but it is equitable.

Anyway, I shouldn't be angrily ranting on forums, I should be studying. As you were.

giollarnat

138 posts

Master Geek

#800560 16-Apr-2013 22:06

you're also slightly beside the point if you focus on race alone, because the scholarships generally don't.
For one, ethnicity is generally indicative of a large range of social factors, e.g. socio-economic deprivation, which cannot be easily grouped otherwise. Similar to school decile for instance - there is positive discrimination in favour of low decile schools in funding because on average, they face a much harder challenge due to the socio-economic context of their students. It's no perfect form of targeting and yet in general it works out very well statistically to direct funding where its needed most and help to level the playing field. That's why a fair amount of government policy targets via ethnicity.

Also, these scholarships are in the main cultural as well as ethnic (and let's remember that ethnicity is mainly on the basis of self-identification in this country, not skin colour). If you want a Maori scholarship, you're often going to have to get support from a kaumatua and prove community involvement (ie that you make a contribution to local marae or similar). Some require you to speak the language, and many ask specifically how you're going to give back to maori community. So you have to reinforce and help to grow maori culture and community life (just as, to a lesser extent, some rotary/freemason's scholarships require you to do for the local town) as well as achieve the objectives of the scholarship, which can range from simply getting a degree ie an education (important in communities where people often have none) to doing some specific research e.g. in health. This is in part how you empower social groups to lift themselves out of historical ruts, by providing some of their members with the tools to help their community. There are other cultural aspects to do with equality in service provision E.g. scholarships for Pasifika doctors, it is well proven that for reasons ranging from basic communication to cultural practices people are on average better served by someone from their own culture. Plenty research showing that your average teacher discriminates unwittingly against brown kids (and they end up failing) simply because past experience and social mores mean they have lower expectations of them - fund a teacher training program like Te Kotahitanga including cultural elements and wham huge improvement. Etc etc

None of this is perfect but it goes a long way towards building a more level playing field in the future. And sorting out the deprived or dysfunctional sections of society saves a great amount of grief in the future - economic as well - for all of us.

1eStar

1604 posts

Uber Geek

#800582 16-Apr-2013 22:44

I won a scholarship once. No idea how. Something like $200 towards my uni fees. And I'm white. I guess some Maoris and Pacific Islanders missed out on it. I guess it was unfair that I won it.

Oh well, it seems life is unfair, but it's always going to be that way, so get over the hump and enjoy the ride.

I'm all for racial scholarships. I've got a few mates who benefited from them. I'm into discrimination, this world is getting far too pc

Ropata

318 posts

Ultimate Geek
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#800609 16-Apr-2013 23:18

Cambo: I agree that everyone in NZ has the same opportunities, but circumstances dictate people's ability to get to the opportunities.

The way people live, what they believe, how they are raised, and with what kind of standards/ethics, will affect how far they go in education (if at all).

Kid A is raised in a back-country, ex-logging town, which has a poorly supplied library, very little internet access, parents who don't show the correct kind of motivation or encouragement. Lets give this kid an insufficient diet, poor housing (draft and cold etc) and an unsettled family life. Kid A is not likely to be exposed to a good role model.

Kid B is just as poor, but lives in the suburbs. Frequent trips to the local library has broadened Kid B's knowledge, and a hunger for geography. Kid B's parents don't earn alot, so Kid B often has to miss school trips, camps, and can't afford a few items which would greatly assist in learning. Despite this, a happy home life and encouragement from nana and grandpa have helped greatly in Kid B's educational aspirations.

Both kids are ranked just as poor as the other, but each have differing circumstances which will largely affect the outcome of their future.

I do think it's unfair for the 'racism' card to be thrown around. I wonder if anyone has seen how some kids are living, then you'd understand whether they have a future or not.
I dare you to have a slice of bread for dinner, no breakfast the following morning, go to work looking dishevelled and poorly dressed. See if you can concentrate and do your duties as required by your employer. It's not the kids fault. They can't apply for different parents, better food, a dryer home, more sleep, etc etc.
Sometimes life is not fair, and some people really do need a helping hand.

Note: There are also scholarships available for poor white kids. I was gunning for two of them.

Precisely. We all have equal opportunity's but where and to whom we're born is no choice for anyone.

Kyanar

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#800644 17-Apr-2013 06:44

Cambo:
I dare you to have a slice of bread for dinner, no breakfast the following morning, go to work looking dishevelled and poorly dressed. See if you can concentrate and do your duties as required by your employer. It's not the kids fault.

Your dare would perhaps have more effect if I didn't already do that - it doesn't affect my ability to do my job and do it blasted well.

To the rest of your post, I fail to see how giving out free money helps the situation in the slightest. All you are saying is that if kids have no interest in education, then we'll give them free money. But if they do have an interest, screw em they can get a loan. You're essentially encouraging kids to rely on welfare rather than work for what they get. Good idea.

I came from a poorish household. Never finished high school. Took out and paid back a $17,000 student loan, got a trade qualification, and a job. At no point did anyone give me free money, though that would have been awesome.

Personally I feel scholarships should be open to all or non-existent. Take your racist "maori only" scholarships and shove it. I can't discriminate when choosing a person to employ based on race, you shouldn't be able to discriminate when choosing a person to fund through uni.

dickytim

2514 posts

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#800649 17-Apr-2013 06:57

TinyTim:
Mark: Going to be a touchy subject this one :-)

Me personally, I class it as discrimination. I'm all for scholarships, but I feel they should be earned and it shouldn't matter what colour or shape a person is, if they are good enough they should have an equal chance to win it.

Well, they're not handed out randomly to people in the target groups; they do have to be the best.

Not reading all the posts, but your comment here is that they are the best in their group, but they are not necessarily the best available.

This is pure racism and should be outlawed.

Could you offer a scholarship and say only for white europeans with blond hair and blue eyes only?

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surfisup1000

5288 posts

Uber Geek

#800656 17-Apr-2013 07:32

qwerty7: So I just opened an email from my university about some scholarships only to read certain race/cultural conditions were required in order to apply

I am not disagreeing with them just questioning the practice. I can see the reason behind them 'helping the under privileged', but is it an 'ambulance at the bottom of the cliff'?

I flatted with a maori trainee doctor who said that maoris had lower pass thresholds.

It is completely wrong in my opinion.

What chance does a non-gay white anglo saxon male have in life?

NZtechfreak

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#800659 17-Apr-2013 07:54

surfisup1000:
qwerty7: So I just opened an email from my university about some scholarships only to read certain race/cultural conditions were required in order to apply

I am not disagreeing with them just questioning the practice. I can see the reason behind them 'helping the under privileged', but is it an 'ambulance at the bottom of the cliff'?

I flatted with a maori trainee doctor who said that maoris had lower pass thresholds.

It is completely wrong in my opinion.

What chance does a non-gay white anglo saxon male have in life?

Interesting, because that isn't true in the slightest (I am a Maori doctor). I wonder, did he lie to you, or is what you're saying an utter fabrication?

Twitter: @nztechfreak
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Handsomedan

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#800663 17-Apr-2013 08:04

NZtechfreak:
surfisup1000:
qwerty7: So I just opened an email from my university about some scholarships only to read certain race/cultural conditions were required in order to apply

I am not disagreeing with them just questioning the practice. I can see the reason behind them 'helping the under privileged', but is it an 'ambulance at the bottom of the cliff'?

I flatted with a maori trainee doctor who said that maoris had lower pass thresholds.

It is completely wrong in my opinion.

What chance does a non-gay white anglo saxon male have in life?

Interesting, because that isn't true in the slightest (I am a Maori doctor). I wonder, did he lie to you, or is what you're saying an utter fabrication?

I actually wonder if an awful lot of what we see as unfair targeting of racial stereotypes is actually continual perpetration of myth...

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surfisup1000

5288 posts

Uber Geek

#800673 17-Apr-2013 08:13

Handsomedan:
Interesting, because that isn't true in the slightest (I am a Maori doctor). I wonder, did he lie to you, or is what you're saying an utter fabrication?

This was in the mid 90's and they definitely said it and were on some sort of maori scholarship too. But, if its not true I accept that.

Unless, what you are saying could also be utter fabrication?

NZtechfreak

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#800676 17-Apr-2013 08:26

surfisup1000:
Handsomedan:
Interesting, because that isn't true in the slightest (I am a Maori doctor). I wonder, did he lie to you, or is what you're saying an utter fabrication?

This was in the mid 90's and they definitely said it and were on some sort of maori scholarship too. But, if its not true I accept that.

Unless, what you are saying could also be utter fabrication?

My name is Murray Winiata, I've met several Geekzoners who can confirm my identity, and you can look me up on the New Zealand Medical Councils register of doctors in NZ.

Regardless of what people think doctors do, the reality is that we trade in trust. That is why all doctors trained in NZ are examined to the same standards, and why the situation your flatmate described would not be allowed to exist.

There are (or at least were) some places reserved for Maori and Pacific Islanders for entry into medicine, but once in the program everyone has to meet the same bar. Having a representative health workforce is important, and it's interesting to note that virtually all Maori doctors stay in NZ to work, whereas at the last count I saw 50% of 2010 graduates left immediately on completion of their training to work overseas (primarily in Australia) and of course more leave subsequent. The way things are headed there will be affirmative action initiatives for men to enter medicine in the relatively near future, some American medical schools are already talking about it.

...and before anyone asks: I was granted general entry into medicine after the normal application and interview process, but elected to enter under the MAPAS admissions scheme as I actually identify as Maori and it afforded me the opportunity to assist others in the scheme.

Twitter: @nztechfreak
Blogs: HeadphoNZ.org

Cambo

107 posts

Master Geek

#800678 17-Apr-2013 08:32

Kyanar:
All you are saying is that if kids have no interest in education, then we'll give them free money. But if they do have an interest, screw em they can get a loan. You're essentially encouraging kids to rely on welfare rather than work for what they get. Good idea.

Personally I feel scholarships should be open to all or non-existent. Take your racist "maori only" scholarships and shove it. I can't discriminate when choosing a person to employ based on race, you shouldn't be able to discriminate when choosing a person to fund through uni.

I clearly touched a sore-point, and I didn't mean to.
There are heaps of people like you, and that's good.
Like you, I struggled all through my life and have had to climb out of the hole I was born into.

I did not say that we'll throw money at children because they have no interest in education.
Comparing children who need a helping hand to employing a person based on race is like comparing apples and onions. An unemployed person can go to WINZ and get all sorts of help, a child fresh out of school has pretty much NFI what to do or where to go for help.

It's clear that there are statistics and case studies proving that the races/ethnicities targeted actually need and/or may benefit from the assistance.

I doubt a govt agency had a meeting and all agreed 'Maoris are poor, lets throw money at them'.
They probably got together and looked at stats - 'Not many of [ethnicity] are going through higher education, why?'; 'Lets do some information gathering, we shall talk to high school students or young people working and see what is stopping them from attaining higher education'.

That's something that some of you are missing because you are painting very broad strokes, and not being reasonable at all.

surfisup1000

5288 posts

Uber Geek

#800699 17-Apr-2013 09:03

NZtechfreak:
Regardless of what people think doctors do, the reality is that we trade in trust. That is why all doctors trained in NZ are examined to the same standards, and why the situation your flatmate described would not be allowed to exist.

OK good, but I did object to you asking if i 'Fabricated' what my flatmate told me.

I have no reason to suspect her honesty as 'she' was a nice person and it is not really the type of thing that one would say unless there is an element of truth. But it is possible I misunderstood her and she was talking about one aspect of her courses.

qwerty7

434 posts

Ultimate Geek
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#800701 17-Apr-2013 09:10

My main problem is I fail to see how we will ever live in an equal society with ethnicity / race based applications.

We are one people (apparently)

Here is a $10,000 scholarship for furthering your education in xyz industry

Only [u]some[u] of you 'one people' may apply

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