Slaughter of Innocents

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BDFL - Memuneh
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#1199674 18-Dec-2014 09:13

Hammerer: You fail to understand the situation with Moslem/Islamic terrorists if you think that this is a religious issue. There are strong religious and philosphical drivers but this is still, as is other forms of terrorism, primarily political.

It is easier to classify Moslem/Islamic terrorists as purely religious because they don't use the same concepts or categories as we do in European civilization. They don't have or see any need for religious and political separation.

Almost pretty true. Islamism is an extremist political ideology that holds Islam as the only guide/set of rules. It's different from Islam, the religion.

Extremism as a political movement is bad, regardless of left or right, Christian or Islamic.

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#1199830 18-Dec-2014 11:39

Hammerer: Your comments seem to show great ignorance.

You fail to understand the situation with Moslem/Islamic terrorists if you think that this is a religious issue. There are strong religious and philosphical drivers but this is still, as is other forms of terrorism, primarily political.

It is easier to classify Moslem/Islamic terrorists as purely religious because they don't use the same concepts or categories as we do in European civilization. They don't have or see any need for religious and political separation.

All countries have politics and religion of some sort. But when I list the worst trouble spots in the world today, or look at the perpetrators of "terrorism" in otherwise peaceful countries, I find one common denominator that is just undeniable.

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#1199858 18-Dec-2014 12:22

Islam the religion is not the problem

on the other hand

Islam in the fundamental idealogy is very powerful. Think of it as Marxism but spread by birth and implemented from day 1 of a child's life. No need to campaign for it. It's there, engrained. From the moment you are conceived. And in closed communities, this goes on for generations, creating an exponential growth capacity. And you need one person to flick the switch and say, the prophet says this - hence just go and do it.

I am not against anyone, but this is my understanding and observation

Again, this happens in other settings, like in gangs, Mafia, drug cartels, pirates, etc ...

To people who want to ban religion, that's just too shallow. Go live in amongst other societies and then you can say that. Otherwise, NZ way of life is a drop in the ocean about to be extinct

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#1199923 18-Dec-2014 13:22

freitasm:
Hammerer: You fail to understand the situation with Moslem/Islamic terrorists if you think that this is a religious issue. There are strong religious and philosphical drivers but this is still, as is other forms of terrorism, primarily political.

It is easier to classify Moslem/Islamic terrorists as purely religious because they don't use the same concepts or categories as we do in European civilization. They don't have or see any need for religious and political separation.

Almost pretty true. Islamism is an extremist political ideology that holds Islam as the only guide/set of rules. It's different from Islam, the religion.

Extremism as a political movement is bad, regardless of left or right, Christian or Islamic.

Islamism and Islam occupy a common conceptual space which is distinctively religious.

The ummah and the ummat al-Islamiyah, the jama'ah and later concepts like dar al islam and dar al Hahb/dar al garb reinforce a way of thinking which is quite distinct from the way people in New Zealand think. It's not the same as the common space that Christendom and Christianity shared but it is just as different or alien to most of us today.

I'd pot it up as something like this: the community (ummah) receives the message of God and the state, as synonymous with the ummah, enforces submission to the way (sharia). In this context, the primacy of Islam is a contest against all other claims whether religious or political.

Geektastic

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#1200008 18-Dec-2014 15:32

freitasm:
Hammerer: You fail to understand the situation with Moslem/Islamic terrorists if you think that this is a religious issue. There are strong religious and philosphical drivers but this is still, as is other forms of terrorism, primarily political.

It is easier to classify Moslem/Islamic terrorists as purely religious because they don't use the same concepts or categories as we do in European civilization. They don't have or see any need for religious and political separation.

Almost pretty true. Islamism is an extremist political ideology that holds Islam as the only guide/set of rules. It's different from Islam, the religion.

Extremism as a political movement is bad, regardless of left or right, Christian or Islamic.

I'm not so sure it is different. There certainly are parts of the Koran which urge believers to be very violent towards unbelievers as well as apostates and so on.

If it was a group of Imams etc preaching that god had told them to do X then yes it would be separate from the religion; if it actually appears in your religious text that infidels should be put to the sword, that makes it part of the religion in my view.

Either someone believes the holy text or they don't - you can't decide a god said it but I don't like Part A so I won't take any notice of Part A but the rest is ok.....

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#1200010 18-Dec-2014 15:36

Geektastic:
freitasm:
Hammerer: You fail to understand the situation with Moslem/Islamic terrorists if you think that this is a religious issue. There are strong religious and philosphical drivers but this is still, as is other forms of terrorism, primarily political.

It is easier to classify Moslem/Islamic terrorists as purely religious because they don't use the same concepts or categories as we do in European civilization. They don't have or see any need for religious and political separation.

Almost pretty true. Islamism is an extremist political ideology that holds Islam as the only guide/set of rules. It's different from Islam, the religion.

Extremism as a political movement is bad, regardless of left or right, Christian or Islamic.

I'm not so sure it is different. There certainly are parts of the Koran which urge believers to be very violent towards unbelievers as well as apostates and so on.

If it was a group of Imams etc preaching that god had told them to do X then yes it would be separate from the religion; if it actually appears in your religious text that infidels should be put to the sword, that makes it part of the religion in my view.

Either someone believes the holy text or they don't - you can't decide a god said it but I don't like Part A so I won't take any notice of Part A but the rest is ok.....

Sure, also Muslim faith preaches tolerance to the People of the Book: "n Islam, the Muslim scripture, the Qur'an, is taken to represent the completion of these scriptures, and to synthesize them as God's true, final, and eternal message to humanity. Because the People of the Book recognize the God of Abraham as the one and only god, as do Muslims, and they practice revealed faiths based on divine ordinances, tolerance and autonomy is accorded to them in societies governed by sharia (Islamic divine law)."

Or People of the Book "Islam is a religion of peace, love and tolerance. Today, however, some circles have been presenting a false image of Islam, as if there were conflict between Islam and the adherents of the two other monotheistic religions. Yet Islam's view of Jews and Christians, who are named "the People of the Book" in the Koran, is very friendly and tolerant."

MikeB4

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#1200012 18-Dec-2014 15:37

But all these texts are written by man be they Islam, Christian, Hindu..... they did not mysteriously appear from upon high written by a deity, it baffles me why people would take them so literally.

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#1200015 18-Dec-2014 15:38

Geektastic:
freitasm:
Hammerer: You fail to understand the situation with Moslem/Islamic terrorists if you think that this is a religious issue. There are strong religious and philosphical drivers but this is still, as is other forms of terrorism, primarily political.

It is easier to classify Moslem/Islamic terrorists as purely religious because they don't use the same concepts or categories as we do in European civilization. They don't have or see any need for religious and political separation.

Almost pretty true. Islamism is an extremist political ideology that holds Islam as the only guide/set of rules. It's different from Islam, the religion.

Extremism as a political movement is bad, regardless of left or right, Christian or Islamic.

I'm not so sure it is different. There certainly are parts of the Koran which urge believers to be very violent towards unbelievers as well as apostates and so on.

If it was a group of Imams etc preaching that god had told them to do X then yes it would be separate from the religion; if it actually appears in your religious text that infidels should be put to the sword, that makes it part of the religion in my view.

Either someone believes the holy text or they don't - you can't decide a god said it but I don't like Part A so I won't take any notice of Part A but the rest is ok.....

I do see your point ...

MikeB4

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#1200021 18-Dec-2014 15:43

The reason they are attacking schools etc is they want to stop education. They think if the populous becomes educated they will see through the garbage, unfortunately not always the case.

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#1200123 18-Dec-2014 19:30

KiwiNZ: The reason they are attacking schools etc is they want to stop education. They think if the populous becomes educated they will see through the garbage, unfortunately not always the case.

Not always, no. But it's the single best weapon there is. The only one that shows any sort of results, really.

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MrJonathanNZ

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#1200125 18-Dec-2014 19:38

Geektastic: Religion is the last great nonsense we need to get rid of.

How adults can believe such patent drivel is quite beyond me - much less how that drivel can be counted adequate reason to cut someone's head off or blow up a bus etc.

We should start by removing all state privilege for religion and all references to it in anthems, oaths etc etc.

Sorry to quote so far back however....
Some people are as passionate about politics as they are about religion.
Some go as far as allowing it to dictate their lives and how they treat/see other people.
It certainly doesn't involve murdering (that I'm aware of) anyone but it can lead to a great hostility.

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#1200132 18-Dec-2014 19:55

MrJonathanNZ:
Geektastic: Religion is the last great nonsense we need to get rid of.

How adults can believe such patent drivel is quite beyond me - much less how that drivel can be counted adequate reason to cut someone's head off or blow up a bus etc.

We should start by removing all state privilege for religion and all references to it in anthems, oaths etc etc.

Sorry to quote so far back however....
Some people are as passionate about politics as they are about religion.
Some go as far as allowing it to dictate their lives and how they treat/see other people.
It certainly doesn't involve murdering (that I'm aware of) anyone but it can lead to a great hostility.

might have to revamp V8 supercars then amongst other things http://www.speedcafe.com/2010/06/14/v8s-chaplain-receives-order-of-australia-medal/

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#1200133 18-Dec-2014 20:08

KiwiNZ:
freitasm:
networkn: Along with all the evil committed in the world, a great deal of good has been done in the name of God and Religion (Charity has it's roots in religion).

Sorry, but disagree. This is similar to some religious people claiming religion defines moral and atheists have no morals because of lack of believe in a God.

Charity can be done without religion involved, doesn't require religion and can be a natural thing even for someone without a religious upbring.

Charity does not need religion but charity often occurs because of someones religious belief and that is a good thing.

That was the point I was trying to make.

I believe considerably less charity would occur without religion

MrJonathanNZ

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#1200296 19-Dec-2014 07:29

networkn:
KiwiNZ:
freitasm:
networkn: Along with all the evil committed in the world, a great deal of good has been done in the name of God and Religion (Charity has it's roots in religion).

Sorry, but disagree. This is similar to some religious people claiming religion defines moral and atheists have no morals because of lack of believe in a God.

Charity can be done without religion involved, doesn't require religion and can be a natural thing even for someone without a religious upbring.

Charity does not need religion but charity often occurs because of someones religious belief and that is a good thing.

That was the point I was trying to make.

I believe considerably less charity would occur without religion

It would be interesting to see an amount total for charity given by churches (to cover the religious aspect) and charity given by businesses, although the religion of the business person donating would play a part I would imagine the charity from business (Gates, Buffet) would be greater than the charity of religion.

MikeB4

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#1200297 19-Dec-2014 07:34

You would have to add in the figures Man hour charity. I think one would find that donated time from religious sources would be far greater than that from Corporate.

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