Latest GOT Episode 6 - Contains Spoilers and ADULT content.

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Networkn
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#1308459 20-May-2015 13:35

Yes, I'm a straight white male but in this context is doesn't matter a whole tonne - the reason why I say the rape culture thing is nonsense is because western culture is far from a rape culture, if you want to see that sort of thing I suggest some of the smaller Arabic countries could help enlighten you. Is there inequality? Yes. Are there people working towards ending it? Yes. Problems don't resolve over night, but they certainly don't resolve when they're turned into us vs them situations.

Agreed, I do think we as a nation tend to over dramatize and overuse some words, one of them being poverty. We don't really have any idea of poverty compared to some places in the world. We have some tragic cases of some extreme poorness.

As for the question of if we have the right to decide who's silly for being offended, you should surely know that just like the offended, we're expressing our opinions too. There's no special agency that will enforce my opinion upon others because I sit higher in the privledge ladder. If there was I would probably be a much nastier person for it, so I'm glad there isn't.

Nicely put.

Edit: RE Your post above, it is definitely rape, she didn't have a swathe of options, but she did know who Ramsey (AKA The Bastard of Bolton) was and what he was. His reputation has been well known in the North, and then there's the fact he's son of Roose Bolton, head of a house who's banner is the flayed man. The bloke who killed her Mother and Brother in the most dishonourable way. The Bolton's aren't a surprise to her.

I do see both sides here, but internally, it doesn't sit right with me to call it rape. She knew (categorically) that sex was coming after the wedding. Was it pleasant, gentle, loving? No. Definitely not (Also it's worth noting that sex for the first time is painful for lots of women, often for many times subsequent too. Could she reasonably expect such a thing (Love making as opposed to sex/rutting) when she was clearly not marrying for love, to the family who butchered her family (To a guy called the BASTARD OF BOLTON no less), I don't believe so. I don't know what I'd call it, but rape is a bridge too far (in this context, taking into account the time and nature of the people involved, and no other for clarity).

As to the question of whether it was required to be there, you should pretty much apply that acid test to almost all scenes. The series is Gratuitous, I've seen it in every episode. I differ in the opinion that I don't think the scene was included to show the rape for the sake of it, I possibly believe it's more part of the plot line of Theon and will be relevant later in the series perhaps. IE it's not part of the Sansa storyline, it's part of the Theon/Ramsey story line. I find people who are offended by this more than many of the other sickening scenes have pretty selective moral outrage. There are a lot of scenes which could be deemed as "unnecessary" in this series, if "gratuitous" is your benchmark.

6FIEND

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#1309074 21-May-2015 08:53

NZtechfreak: [postulates on what might have occurred if Sansa hadn't made the choice she did...]

I think my analogy works because it conveys the appropriate lack of real choice available to the victom. In relation to the example with the doctor - if an intern was asked to conduct an examination of that kind without explicit consent, then that absolutely constitutes an assault on the patients person. The intern cannot even be present during the examination without prior consent (I am a doctor, in case you weren't aware). Refusing to wear gloves or use lubrication would be a significant departure from practice norms, in the event of a complaint the offending doctor would be rightly hung out to dry. Not wearing gloves in sensitive examinations is almost certainly a flag that the examination was an abuse according to our professional standards. Read the Cartwright Inquiry and/or related reports from the office of the Health and Disability Commissioner if those points aren't clear to you.

It seems that you're missing my point here? I was not suggesting that any of those scenarios are normal or inoffensive. I was trying to illustrate that the very same "procedure" can be either "perfectly ok", "mildly uncomfortable, "extremely uncomfortable/painful", "abusive and threatening", "criminal assault" depending on a large number of situational variables.

Sansa may well have not had any "better" options available to her, but she was presented with options and chose the one she felt would be best for her in the long term.

This is precisely analogous to my example where a patient can technically choose to avoid having a suspected case of prostate cancer diagnosed/treated but ultimately this will lead to much greater suffering and potentially death. So what choice do they really have? (Even if they know that the only doctor in town has a history/reputation for failing to uphold professional standards?)

And just to repeat my earlier opinion - I am in no way suggesting that Sansa wasn't raped.

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#1309637 22-May-2015 07:11

IMO they never showed sexual violence in the scene, people have made the connection themselves.

I saw it as it was, a medieval deflowering, guess what? That is what likely happened in that time.

The fact that the husband is a pig of a human being is being taken into consideration here and the rest is assumed.

BTW was there the same outcry when Theon Greyjoy had his penis cut off? That is even worse sexual violence, just the sexist society we live in seems to only believe sexual violence can be perpetrated towards women!

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#1309641 22-May-2015 07:36

Personally I think the time Ramsay had his dog eat that girl was worse.

He's a horrible character, we're suppose to hate him. I think it was shot really well and loved how it focused on Theon, made me feel something for him again. But I was expecting one of them to kill Ramsay during it.

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#1309729 22-May-2015 10:47

NonprayingMantis: one reason (I suspect) why more people are outraged at this compared to the many other nasty things that happen is that Sansa is totally innocent. Viewers like to see 'good' people win, and 'bad' people get their comeuppance.

She's naive, yes, but really is one of the few major characters who isn't a manipulative murdering scumbag. We've watched her be humiliated and beaten through the seasons, moved from place to place, used as a bargaining chip, watched her reactions as her family have been murdered one by one, forced to marry (twice!) Throughout all of that she has done virtually nothing nasty, spending most of her time praying to the gods.

Her absolute worst crime was lying to the lords of the vale about what happened when Littlefinger killed her Aunt (who by the way was crazy and had just tried to kill her)

In viewers minds, Shae, by comparison, is, and always was a hooker. She was manipulative, vindictive towards Tyrion when he tried to keep her safe. She was also a grown adult. Sansa is supposed to be about 17 I think by this point.
Or take Theon. He was tortured over the course of an entire season, having his fingers cut off, partially skinned, and his penis cut off. But it's not as hard for the viewers to accept since he was also a douchebag who murdered a bunch of people just to please his father.

also, by the standard of 'forced sex in an arranged marriage' Khaleesi was raped in S1 by Khal Drogo (and at that point she was also young and innocent) - and we actually got to see it happen - bewbs and all.

She annoys me so much that it's hard for me to be sympathetic. She's such a sap.

NZtechfreak

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#1309804 22-May-2015 11:40

networkn: NZTF seems to me to intimating that if you didn't find this scene shocking to your core, you are ok with women being raped and sexually assaulted which for the record, despite making clear TWICE in my OP, isn't the case in the slightest way. There is a BIG difference between a fictional series which has a lot of Sexual and Violent "activity" and being ok with it in real life, or finding it acceptable in today's society. I think most people could make this distinction and have no prejudice against women, and those who can't, likely aren't going to have their views changed or influenced by a TV series.

This is a very obvious distortion of what I said. I know you're a decent person, so I'm going to assume that you aren't misrepresenting my statement deliberately, and I suspect this is coming from an emotive response to my calling your reasoning stupid (FWIW, while that does accurately represent my views on reasoning that goes toward forming an opinion that this was not rape, it was totally unnecessarily harsh for me to state it like that and for that I unreservedly apologise). What I did say was that if no part of you experienced any discomfort (or even "some disquiet") that I can't understand you (and that wasn't directed specifically at you, but rather anyone who could watch that with no unease whatsoever). Up until that point in the thread there was basically a consensus that this wasn't rape and that people who might be offended were just nancies, there was nary an acknowledgement from any of the commenters that the scene was at all disturbing, and I found that worrisome. I note that once one voice of dissent dared raise it's head above the parapet, a number of others posted in agreement (and yet more supported my post, in case you hadn't noticed).

I absolutely accept that you are totally against rape and sexual assault, I am quite clear about that. What I do think though, is that if your underlying belief structure can allow you to watch that and not believe you are seeing a rape, then there is a problem there. For me it illustrates the depth of the problem of rape culture in our society - if even smart, decent people can watch that and not see a rape, then we have a very long way to go indeed.

networkn: I also don't feel it fair to apply todays views on what constitutes rape, retrospectively, as I don't believe it would have been considered "rape" back then. Do you think if Sansa went to the local constabulary after the events of that night and suggested she was "raped" it would have even CONSIDERED for investigation?

I see you restating your opinion here, but I do not see anything to counter my argument that this is akin to cultural relativism *which has limits*. The fact that many in this fictitious world would not consider what occurred as rape should not have a bearing on how we should see it through the lens of our own societal values. If you watched a genital mutilation occurring, would you consider it was not wrong because the people doing it did not believe it was wrong?

networkn: As to the question of whether it was required to be there, you should pretty much apply that acid test to almost all scenes. The series is Gratuitous, I've seen it in every episode. I differ in the opinion that I don't think the scene was included to show the rape for the sake of it, I possibly believe it's more part of the plot line of Theon and will be relevant later in the series perhaps. IE it's not part of the Sansa storyline, it's part of the Theon/Ramsey story line. I find people who are offended by this more than many of the other sickening scenes have pretty selective moral outrage. There are a lot of scenes which could be deemed as "unnecessary" in this series, if "gratuitous" is your benchmark.

Yes, broad swathes of the show are gratuitous. Agreed. You may not have noticed though, but as a society we are OK with gratuitous fantasy violence. As a society that tolerance has never been extended to sexual violence on screen however (I suppose you might say a bit like how alcohol is a societally accepted drug, but others aren't). One of things that makes this stand out even further in my mind is the juxtaposition with sadistic psychological torture, together they form an even more potently disturbing scene.

networkn: (Also it's worth noting that sex for the first time is painful for lots of women, often for many times subsequent too

I hate to say it, but your repeated attempts to normalise her screaming creep me out a bit.

Geektastic: She annoys me so much that it's hard for me to be sympathetic. She's such a sap.

You can't feel sympathy for a rape victim because they're a sap? If that really represents the state of your empathy, rather than an utterly tasteless attempt at trolling, then you have a serious problem.

toejam316: the reason why I say the rape culture thing is nonsense is because western culture is far from a rape culture, if you want to see that sort of thing I suggest some of the smaller Arabic countries could help enlighten you.

In order to say this then you really have to have no grasp of what "rape culture" means. You should probably seek some enlightenment yourself on what it means. Also, the premise of your argument here is totally weak sauce, and I would imagine other readers to not require me to point that out. Noting that there are other societies/cultures in the world even further behind the 8-ball than us around these issues in no way illustrates that we don't also have a very real problem that needs to be addressed.

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MileHighKiwi

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#1309839 22-May-2015 12:27

I must have missed the furor when Jamie Lannister screwed his sister.

toejam316

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#1309853 22-May-2015 12:52

NZtechfreak:
toejam316: the reason why I say the rape culture thing is nonsense is because western culture is far from a rape culture, if you want to see that sort of thing I suggest some of the smaller Arabic countries could help enlighten you.

In order to say this then you really have to have no grasp of what "rape culture" means. You should probably seek some enlightenment yourself on what it means. Also, the premise of your argument here is totally weak sauce, and I would imagine other readers to not require me to point that out. Noting that there are other societies/cultures in the world even further behind the 8-ball than us around these issues in no way illustrates that we don't also have a very real problem that needs to be addressed.

I'm very much a what it says on the tin kinda person. The implication of the phrase rape culture is literally a culture of rape. At best it devalues the word rape, and at worst it dehumanizes large swathes of people through fear and mistrust. As far as I'm concerned things like rape culture and toxic masculinity hold back the good that the people pushing for change could do, all in an attempt to appeal to the alarmists.

Stop saying rape culture and start saying inequalities and then I might just be on board, because that's where the issues stem from. Inequalities. Focusing on negativity draws negativity, focusing on positivity creates positivity.

Slightly more on topic, I think a lot of the complaints being levied are from people who just dropped in to watching the show without seeing the earlier scenes. Between Khal Drogo and Dany's relationship to the mereenese slaves, there are a lot more troubling things than a dispicable man being a bit rough on his begrudging new wife.

Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.

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#1309867 22-May-2015 13:17

Rape culture, one definition (with others being variations along the same lines):

"Rape culture is the ways in which a society trivializes, rationalizes, or even condones rape and other acts of sexual violence. Rape culture includes a variety of issues from the way raped individuals are treated by police to the way rape is portrayed in fiction and by the media."

toejam316: there are a lot more troubling things than a dispicable man being a bit rough on his begrudging new wife.

In relation to the rest of your post, I disagree that the dominant culture should be allowed to select the terms of reference and definition of issues that apply to affected members of the non-dominant culture.

I am sorry that you can't engage with this issue because the term "rape culture" sounds negative. I mean gosh darn it, why can't women choose another less-loaded and non-threatening term for your sake, right? A positive spin is really what rape needs. /s

Naturally the discussion does need to take place on several levels, including along lines that are less threatening to the dominant culture, but at this stage - where the discussion is really only starting (despite the term rape culture existing since the 70s) - an activist front that puts this in peoples faces in a confronting way that forces discussion and thought is important too.

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toejam316

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#1309959 22-May-2015 15:20

NZtechfreak: Rape culture, one definition (with others being variations along the same lines):

"Rape culture is the ways in which a society trivializes, rationalizes, or even condones rape and other acts of sexual violence. Rape culture includes a variety of issues from the way raped individuals are treated by police to the way rape is portrayed in fiction and by the media."

toejam316: there are a lot more troubling things than a dispicable man being a bit rough on his begrudging new wife.

In relation to the rest of your post, I disagree that the dominant culture should be allowed to select the terms of reference and definition of issues that apply to affected members of the non-dominant culture.

I am sorry that you can't engage with this issue because the term "rape culture" sounds negative. I mean gosh darn it, why can't women choose another less-loaded and non-threatening term for your sake, right? A positive spin is really what rape needs. /s

Naturally the discussion does need to take place on several levels, including along lines that are less threatening to the dominant culture, but at this stage - where the discussion is really only starting (despite the term rape culture existing since the 70s) - an activist front that puts this in peoples faces in a confronting way that forces discussion and thought is important too.

Your whole argument stems off of the defence that the commonly known definition of a word isn't the one that should be considered, which then shifts what you're saying from something easily understood as jargon, and then proceed to imply that because I'm not in acceptance of your definition I'm enabling rapists to function in our society. And you make all these assumptions about me as a person because of adjectives that apply to me. Hardly a fair conclusion, no?

In any case I do thoroughly recommend that you watch A Clockwork Orange - I believe that it is a fantastic demonstration of the value of context, and will either help you see where I'm coming from or cement me as an awful person in your eyes.

Edit: Also note how your quote to prove your point removes my previous context. Kinda devalues your argument if it can't hold up against what you've targeted when in context. Very easy to do to your /s bit.

Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.

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#1309961 22-May-2015 15:29

MileHighKiwi: I must have missed the furor when Jamie Lannister screwed his sister.

there wasn't much outrage over the incest (but then again, that was between two consenting adults, so is nowhere near as bad as rape or murder)

However, there was quite a bit of furore over the Jamie/Cersei rape scene which actually WASN'T in the book*

http://www.avclub.com/article/rape-thrones-203499

*in the book, they have sex, and intially she rejects him, but then she changes her mind and rekindles her desire for him and clearly consents. In the TV show, the second part never happens. He just throws her on the floor and screws her with her saying 'no' the whole time.

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#1310075 22-May-2015 19:31

NonprayingMantis:
MileHighKiwi: I must have missed the furor when Jamie Lannister screwed his sister.

there wasn't much outrage over the incest (but then again, that was between two consenting adults, so is nowhere near as bad as rape or murder)

However, there was quite a bit of furore over the Jamie/Cersei rape scene which actually WASN'T in the book*

http://www.avclub.com/article/rape-thrones-203499

*in the book, they have sex, and intially she rejects him, but then she changes her mind and rekindles her desire for him and clearly consents. In the TV show, the second part never happens. He just throws her on the floor and screws her with her saying 'no' the whole time.

Jamei/Cersei wasn't the only incest.. Viserys copped a feel from Daenerys back in the first episode, right before he married her off to a warlord who raped her.

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NZtechfreak

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#1310115 22-May-2015 20:15

toejam316: In any case I do thoroughly recommend that you watch A Clockwork Orange - I believe that it is a fantastic demonstration of the value of context, and will either help you see where I'm coming from or cement me as an awful person in your eyes.

I've seen A Clockwork Orange, of course. That movie was a vehicle for an idea, and while I can see where you're coming from there, I see the context created there as a very different beast - I do not see it as being particularly analogous to GoT.

While I do think that statements that attempt to minimise the import of a rape constitute examples of rape culture, I don't think you're an awful person at all. As I said earlier, I think part of the difficulty is that so many good, decent, smart people in our society still have views that are informed by this insidious creep that we've all been exposed to growing up in this culture. They manifest in lots of ways, from outright deficit thinking - "Well look at the way she was dressed", "What was she doing out at night like that" - to thoughts that conflate earlier decisions with some kind of blanket consent - "She's married, it's not really rape", "Well they went out on a date and she goes back to his place and then cries rape" - to more subtle distortions "he was being a bit rough", "I don't know if you can say her screams meant it was rape - it could be normal, since she's a virgin".

toejam316: Also note how your quote to prove your point removes my previous context. Kinda devalues your argument if it can't hold up against what you've targeted when in context. Very easy to do to your /s bit.

You characterised a rape as a "dispicable man being a bit rough on his begrudging new wife". I think it would be quite difficult to contextualise that sufficiently to mitigate the impact of the statement at all, and as it stands I do not think you got anywhere close to doing that. As such, I don't think quoting that part of the statement in isolation represents an unfair handling of that.

Going back to the central question here, "was it rape", I think we have got unnecessarily bogged down weighing a lot of things that ultimately have no relevance. You can distil it all down to the bedroom scene, like in the date-rape example above, none of the other decisions matter in terms of whether this was consenting sex or rape. If she had said no at that point, we wouldn't even be having this debate, there would be no question it was rape. If she *couldn't* say no then it amounts to the same. Does anyone really think she could have said no? What would have happened had she done that? I think we all know the answer to that. She would have been beaten (and quite possibly worse, this is Bolton we're talking about, after all), and then raped anyway. The smart thing to do was what she did do, to offer no real resistance. That doesn't constitute consent, no matter how you cut it. It was rape. Furthermore, Bolton was 100% aware that she not want to have sex with him. From the point of view of his intentions it is clearly rape. If anyone is still unable to see that, well then I simply don't know what to tell you.

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Geektastic

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#1310209 22-May-2015 22:44

NZtechfreak: Rape culture, one definition (with others being variations along the same lines):

"Rape culture is the ways in which a society trivializes, rationalizes, or even condones rape and other acts of sexual violence. Rape culture includes a variety of issues from the way raped individuals are treated by police to the way rape is portrayed in fiction and by the media."

toejam316: there are a lot more troubling things than a dispicable man being a bit rough on his begrudging new wife.

In relation to the rest of your post, I disagree that the dominant culture should be allowed to select the terms of reference and definition of issues that apply to affected members of the non-dominant culture.

I am sorry that you can't engage with this issue because the term "rape culture" sounds negative. I mean gosh darn it, why can't women choose another less-loaded and non-threatening term for your sake, right? A positive spin is really what rape needs. /s

Naturally the discussion does need to take place on several levels, including along lines that are less threatening to the dominant culture, but at this stage - where the discussion is really only starting (despite the term rape culture existing since the 70s) - an activist front that puts this in peoples faces in a confronting way that forces discussion and thought is important too.

I'm not sure you have grasped the meaning of the word 'dominant'...

I would say that by definition a dominant culture will subsume and eventually obliterate a submissive culture. That has happened countless times in history. It's kind of the point of setting yourself up as the dominant culture.

NZtechfreak

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#1310363 23-May-2015 11:46

Rank ignorance. You should do some research on what the phrase dominant culture refers to.

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