Ok to have Women only but men only isn't allowed?

Forums › Off topic › Ok to have Women only but men only isn't allowed?

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#1949416 31-Jan-2018 15:44

Fred99:

As a heterosexual male, I assume you'd possibly find a gym frequented by mainly gay males as unappealing as a woman may find a gym frequented by mainly heterosexual men.

I'm a hetero male and that wouldn't bother me at all. I probably wouldn't even notice.

Mike

MikeAqua

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#1949473 31-Jan-2018 16:08

Fred99:

MikeAqua:

There is even a term for it: Victim Privilege

That sounds very much like a hashtag created by and shared amongst a certain type of person, opposed to changing social attitudes about discrimination.

It's a term that's used in a variety of circles. I don't know the origin. Firstly its doesn't mean that any individual who has been a victim of some wrongdoing somehow derives privilege from that.

Rather, it describes attempts by advocates to portray a whole group of people as victims, and claim for that group the associated moral high ground and resulting power.

Public empathy is a resource like any other. Victim privilege is the power that results from capturing public empathy by portraying your group as down trodden.

If nothing else, victim privilege claiming is an informative lens to view peoples' comment and campaigning through.

Mike

Fred99

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#1949484 31-Jan-2018 16:26

MikeAqua:

Fred99:

MikeAqua:

There is even a term for it: Victim Privilege

That sounds very much like a hashtag created by and shared amongst a certain type of person, opposed to changing social attitudes about discrimination.

It's a term that's used in a variety of circles. I don't know the origin. Firstly its doesn't mean that any individual who has been a victim of some wrongdoing somehow derives privilege from that.

Rather, it describes attempts by advocates to portray a whole group of people as victims, and claim for that group the associated moral high ground and resulting power.

Public empathy is a resource like any other. Victim privilege is the power that results from capturing public empathy by portraying your group as down trodden.

If nothing else, victim privilege claiming is an informative lens to view peoples' comment and campaigning through.

If it's hollow claims by advocates for special privileges for groups that aren't genuinely discriminated against and therefore don't have a valid argument - then just ignore it.

Suggesting that the actions of those speaking out about the "male only barber" are advocates for "victim privilege" is petty name-calling. The fact that there is discussion suggests that there actually may be an issue that's at least worth thinking about, rather than automatically knee-jerking against.

MikeAqua

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#1949495 31-Jan-2018 16:58

Fred99:

Suggesting that the actions of those speaking out about the "male only barber" are advocates for "victim privilege" is petty name-calling.

I didn't directly describe that particular issue as victim privilege claiming I used the term in relation to general point made by someone else.

But I've now given it more thought ...

'Rachel' (name changed in article) was denied service by barber who doesn't provide women haircuts (arguably legally entitled to do so as it's not a service they specialise in) and makes this obvious in promotional material. A cynic might think she went in there because it advertised as a men's only barber - coudn't possibly comment

So she went to another barber shop (literally) around the corner and got a haircut there. No harm done and she was barely even inconvenienced.

There is discrimination in NZ but that incident isn't it, it's market specialisation. So are women-only gyms. 'Rachel' isn't a victim of anything but wants to look like one.

By publicly portraying herself as a victim she hopes to garner attention and harm the barbers shop that denied her service by claiming it's discriminating against women. Reality is most women wouldn't let a barber within ten feet of their hair. The net impact of that particular barber shop's business model on women is negligible.

The article also tried to muddy the waters by tacking on gender identity and sexual orientation issues as well.

So much victim privilege claiming, I thought it must have came out of the back end of a (male) bovine.

Mike

gzt

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#1949508 31-Jan-2018 17:06

The website says the shop was established in 2013 as men only. The Herald article says the owner began saying no to women as a policy in 2017. It's possible these women felt they were discriminated against because they identify as trans. The article doesn't say so.

Probably a good way for them to find out if some women call up and say yeah I had a cut there last week. Nothing presented to see that has occurred.

Rikkitic

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#1949510 31-Jan-2018 17:14

I said I had mixed feelings about this. Still do. Businesses are supposed to serve the public, and a business that refuses service to an individual has to be careful that it does not discriminate or cause humiliation to that person. At the same time, I am inclined to agree that the person in this case (without really knowing, of course, based entirely on media reports) is just trying to get attention and make trouble. I feel more sympathy for the barber than for her. I could be wrong, of course, but without more detail that is how it seems to me. She can have any haircut she wants in her choice of other places. The haircuts appear to be comparable. I think she needs to get a life.

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jonb

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#1949514 31-Jan-2018 17:17

I find these sorts of discussions that show up from time to time on geekzone pretty disheartening, and imagine they are a major turn off for new visitors to the site. A bunch of men deciding what is or isn't a good or fair thing for women, as if there isn't enough of that already.

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MikeAqua

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#1949530 31-Jan-2018 17:39

jonb:

I find these sorts of discussions that show up from time to time on geekzone pretty disheartening, and imagine they are a major turn off for new visitors to the site. A bunch of men deciding what is or isn't a good or fair thing for women, as if there isn't enough of that already.

Firstly; no decisions have been made, just views exchanged which is healthy.

Secondly; this thread covers issues relevant to men, as well: -

- Women gyms exclude men (I don't personally object to this);

- Men's barber shop was set up specifically as a men's only shop to give men a safe space to talk to other men in.

We all (everyone) impact each other and so we are all (yes even men) entitled to have a view on what is good or fair for society. That includes the right to criticise the behaviour of others, when we can clearly smell what they are shovelling.

Thirdly; if you read around the internet you will find plenty of women with a lot to say on what is right/fair/good for men.

Mike

Fred99

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#1949536 31-Jan-2018 17:53

jonb:

I find these sorts of discussions that show up from time to time on geekzone pretty disheartening, and imagine they are a major turn off for new visitors to the site. A bunch of men deciding what is or isn't a good or fair thing for women, as if there isn't enough of that already.

There is a "politics" sub-forum - perhaps this thread belongs there, with reservation that discussion on almost any subject can evolve (or devolve as the case may be) into politics.

I agree that there seems to be a disproportionate number of males with conservative and potentially misogynistic social views posting on this site. It reminds me very much of the (large) IT department at my wife's work. I'm fairly sure you could run a successful male-only barber shop in one of the server rooms - along with all other kinds of secret men's business.

Coil

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#1949538 31-Jan-2018 17:53

MikeAqua:

Fred99:

Suggesting that the actions of those speaking out about the "male only barber" are advocates for "victim privilege" is petty name-calling.

I didn't directly describe that particular issue as victim privilege claiming I used the term in relation to general point made by someone else.

Mike was coming back to myself giving a word to a definition I gave.
I was implying that there are groups of people who use these form of interactions and twist the reality of the situation to push their agenda or ideology. E.g: Black Rights movement, LGBT movement, Women equality and the list goes on.

We do not live in a fair world and it will never be a fair world. Groups who are using events to portray how the world is so evil to them and that we should all bow to them because of this is just atrocious.

It is petty in the first instance a woman walks into a barber and is told that they only cut mens hair the has the wit to complain to the media and make an example of them to push their ideology.

A friend of mine lost his very successful Barber shop due to a staff member deciding they were female 2 weeks after starting there. So he gave them the option to be a man as the job required or leave. Could imagine how that went.. Media ran with a story that a transgender person was unfairly dismissed for being trans.

Ah well..

TwoSeven

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#1949559 31-Jan-2018 18:26

Sometimes I think some people have a world-view based on never thinking about things from the other side of the coin so to speak. I often wonder if they had that other view, would they hold the same opinion.

For example, I understand that stereotyping is “a belief about a certain group of people”, and that predjudice is “a feeling about a person based on their membership of a group”. So I am often surprised when I see someone excluding another person of an opposite gender based on their own perceptions of how those people may think or feel.

As a feminist, equality to me means that an individuals rights, responsibilities and opportunities does not depend on whether a person was born male or female and that we also take into consideration diversity across different groups.

I am also reminded of the start of article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which starts “All people are born equal free and equal in dignity and rights…”

So in my opinion, sometimes I think all it may take is for men and women to work together to remove the old gender biased stereotypes and build new ones that reflect equality and opportunity for all.

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Geektastic

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#1949711 31-Jan-2018 21:10

jonb:
I find these sorts of discussions that show up from time to time on geekzone pretty disheartening, and imagine they are a major turn off for new visitors to the site. A bunch of men deciding what is or isn't a good or fair thing for women, as if there isn't enough of that already.

I don't care if it is or isn't "fair" whatever that means in this context.

I don't care if female only hairdressers exist or gyms or whatever.

You cannot IMV have female only services but then claim male only services are somehow wrong.

That definitely isn't fair.

1eStar

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#1949728 31-Jan-2018 21:33

The head girl at my high school was the captain of the boys squash team.

Go figure

Kyanar

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#1949729 31-Jan-2018 21:35

jonb:

I find these sorts of discussions that show up from time to time on geekzone pretty disheartening, and imagine they are a major turn off for new visitors to the site. A bunch of men deciding what is or isn't a good or fair thing for women, as if there isn't enough of that already.

To be honest, this sort of statement irritates me. No-one is deciding what is or isn't a good or fair thing for women, they're simply arguing that a man (who isn't a woman) should be entitled to operate a men's barber, since it's apparently just and fair that a woman can run a taxi service that only picks up women. It's utterly infuriating when someone claims that for women to do it, it's just and fair but for men to do it, it's rampant discrimination and disgusting.

Either it's fine for everyone to do it, or it's not fine for anyone to do it.

MikeB4

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#1949737 31-Jan-2018 21:51

There are "gentlemen" only clubs, been around for a long time. I believe there is one in Napier, I think its called the Hawkes Bay Club. I would never enter an institution such as that, I will never support discrimination like this.

If the Barber wont do haircuts for women and doesn't want to stuff it up then fair enough decline the client. If the barber is saying no based solely on gender he is simply stupid, he is surely in business to make money so refusing a large percentage of the customer base due to gender is just plain dumb and I hope his business collapses.

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