Police address spate of dramatic ramraids in Auckland

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#2930916 17-Jun-2022 13:42

I have a family member and a reasonably good friend who are both frontline cops. One is a long service veteran, the other only a few years out of police college. I've had occasion to meet quite a few other cops and chat over a beer with them via one of them. Their opinions have been broadly similar and can be summarized as follows:

A huge proportion of their callouts are family harm and these are prioritized over things like property theft for political reasons.
Police HQ is completely out of touch with the cops on the front line.
Everything is about political correctness and optics rather than good policework.
The revolving door offenders grind down police morale, they arrest them, they get released, they arrest them, they get released.
The courts are far too soft on repeat offenders and we need to build a LOT more jails

If that's what the frontline cops think, no wonder the rest of us are left to wonder what is happening.

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Oblivian

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#2930917 17-Jun-2022 13:42

elpenguino:

Hang on. The offenders have left the scene but they 'haven't got away with it', at least not yet.

Chances are the long arm of the law will catch up with them in the end.

Maybe. But I don't see it, else it would be a deterrent to this continuing.

But how many of the latest ones reported here have ended in arrest. A few have been 'referred to youth Justice' while the older ones appear to not be pinged yet in any follow up stories.

However here, in the sense that everyone busted out their phones. (When there is a fat chance of identifying them either by image or prints). No doubt Reporting it P1 as it happens, only to have the car found after the fact abandoned, clearly also has no effect with the squeeze on staffing. Leaving there no choice but to 'follow up' after the fact.

Ergo. They get away with the crime at the time of the event. And looking at the lack of follow ups. Often after too.

insane

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#2930928 17-Jun-2022 14:06

Lias:
I have a family member and a reasonably good friend who are both frontline cops. One is a long service veteran, the other only a few years out of police college. I've had occasion to meet quite a few other cops and chat over a beer with them via one of them. Their opinions have been broadly similar and can be summarized as follows:

A huge proportion of their callouts are family harm and these are prioritized over things like property theft for political reasons.

Police HQ is completely out of touch with the cops on the front line.

Everything is about political correctness and optics rather than good policework.

The revolving door offenders grind down police morale, they arrest them, they get released, they arrest them, they get released.

The courts are far too soft on repeat offenders and we need to build a LOT more jails

If that's what the frontline cops think, no wonder the rest of us are left to wonder what is happening.

My police friend(s) have echoed very similar views. It's really quite alarming how thin they are stretched!

cruxis

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#2930932 17-Jun-2022 14:12

We need to let it known to capable Bystanders that they will Not be proscuted if they use force to stop offenders and put them down if they choose to do so. Some bystanders can be more afraid that if they engage offenders that police will arrest them for assualt.

Scott3

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#2930937 17-Jun-2022 14:21

elpenguino:

Now we need bollards to protect schools.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/300584796/we-could-have-been-killed-moment-car-smashes-through-school-doors-into-family-caught-on-camera

In this case, it was an driving error, rather than malicious intent.

However I think sadly (cos bollards are ugly) we have got to a point in society, where we do need to make a lot more effort to separate cars from pedestrian area's.

Ram Raids

Driver error

Use of box trucks as a terrorist weapons in Europe.

Generally more people and vehicles around.

I don't have any evidence to back it up, but suspect that driver error, causing a crash's into pedestrian errors is up from decades past, for the following reasons:

Widespread automatic car's. Much less harm done from mashing the accelerator on an manual with the clutch depressed.
Modern car's typically more powerful (accelerates faster, hence less time for driver to correct error)
Modern vehicles heavier = more damage
Increasing popularity of car's with more ground clearance, larger tire diameter & AWD systems, which make it way easier to mount stuff.

Scott3

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#2930940 17-Jun-2022 14:22

cruxis:

We need to let it known to capable Bystanders that they will Not be proscuted if they use force to stop offenders and put them down if they choose to do so. Some bystanders can be more afraid that if they engage offenders that police will arrest them for assualt.

Would need a law change.

muppet

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#2930968 17-Jun-2022 15:09

I've lobbied and lobbied but it's just fallen on deaf ears. I know for a fact that if we not only melted old people down for soap, but also repeat criminal offenders, we'd be a much better society.

I've asked a number of politicians on Twitter if they will support my "melt old people down for soap" idea but none of them will reply and quite a few have blocked me.

No one likes to talk about tough measures I guess?

I'm starting my new political party, MOPDFS this coming election.

Together, we can melt old people (and criminals) - I'll be asking for your support.

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elpenguino

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#2930970 17-Jun-2022 15:12

Oblivian:

elpenguino:

Hang on. The offenders have left the scene but they 'haven't got away with it', at least not yet.

Chances are the long arm of the law will catch up with them in the end.

Maybe. But I don't see it, else it would be a deterrent to this continuing.

But how many of the latest ones reported here have ended in arrest. A few have been 'referred to youth Justice' while the older ones appear to not be pinged yet in any follow up stories.

However here, in the sense that everyone busted out their phones. (When there is a fat chance of identifying them either by image or prints). No doubt Reporting it P1 as it happens, only to have the car found after the fact abandoned, clearly also has no effect with the squeeze on staffing. Leaving there no choice but to 'follow up' after the fact.

Ergo. They get away with the crime at the time of the event. And looking at the lack of follow ups. Often after too.

Maybe, maybe not. Remember that our media organisations are biased to report the stories of the robbery much more than the follow up prosecution.

Regarding the 'soft' treatment by courts: The son of an acquaintance of mine took up with some yobs when he reached teenagehood, and was found by Plod hooning around in someone else's car. The foresaid young fella did not go to jail. He received non-custodial punishment.

Now, in his case, once receiving attention from the authorities, he saw the error of his ways and stopped taking other people's cars for a joyride. He's now a productive member of society.

Do you think he would have been able to redeem himself if he'd been sent straight to prison to be surrounded by hardened criminals?

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

elpenguino

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#2930974 17-Jun-2022 15:18

muppet:

I've lobbied and lobbied but it's just fallen on deaf ears. I know for a fact that if we not only melted old people down for soap, but also repeat criminal offenders, we'd be a much better society.

I've asked a number of politicians on Twitter if they will support my "melt old people down for soap" idea but none of them will reply and quite a few have blocked me.

No one likes to talk about tough measures I guess?

I'm starting my new political party, MOPDFS this coming election.

Together, we can melt old people (and criminals) - I'll be asking for your support.

Could be keen, but please define 'old' first.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

johno1234

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#2930982 17-Jun-2022 15:35

elpenguino:

Regarding the 'soft' treatment by courts: The son of an acquaintance of mine took up with some yobs when he reached teenagehood, and was found by Plod hooning around in someone else's car. The foresaid young fella did not go to jail. He received non-custodial punishment.

Now, in his case, once receiving attention from the authorities, he saw the error of his ways and stopped taking other people's cars for a joyride. He's now a productive member of society.

Do you think he would have been able to redeem himself if he'd been sent straight to prison to be surrounded by hardened criminals?

I doubt anyone here would support jailing first time youth offenders for property crimes. But after multiple offences there needs to be consequences that the perpetrators do care about. It does seem that the hard core of youth offenders just keep offending and there's pretty much nothing the cops can do about the revolving door catch and release enforcement.

johno1234

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#2930989 17-Jun-2022 15:43

This judge wouldn't send a 22yo to jail for assaulting police, presenting a weapon etc:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129002641/i-dont-want-to-throw-your-life-away-man-who-assaulted-police-spared-jail

... because he deems jail would be leading the offender to gang connections.

I don't think it is the judge's job to make this determination. There are sentencing guidelines to be followed. If there's an issue with the jails then that's for Corrections to resolve. This judge is operating outside of his remit, IMHO.

elpenguino

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#2930996 17-Jun-2022 15:50

johno1234:

This judge wouldn't send a 22yo to jail for assaulting police, presenting a weapon etc:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129002641/i-dont-want-to-throw-your-life-away-man-who-assaulted-police-spared-jail

... because he deems jail would be leading the offender to gang connections.

I don't think it is the judge's job to make this determination. There are sentencing guidelines to be followed. If there's an issue with the jails then that's for Corrections to resolve. This judge is operating outside of his remit, IMHO.

Maybe the judge is following the very guidelines he or she is supposed to. What do the guidelines say?

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

gzt

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#2931194 17-Jun-2022 20:13

Oblivian: But how many of the latest ones reported here have ended in arrest. A few have been 'referred to youth Justice' while the older ones appear to not be pinged yet in any follow up stories.

Ram raids are high rating exciting news. Followup stories not much.

Oblivian

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#2931195 17-Jun-2022 20:18

gzt: Ram raids are high rating exciting news. Followup stories not much.

Often addendum on one of the related stories and followed up.

Thats how the young people were reported as going to youth justice from earlier dairy raid stories. But there has been no such follow ups for the higher profile.

Lias

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#2931285 18-Jun-2022 09:09

I had more than my share of run ins with the cops and the courts when I was younger, but as a somewhat rehabilitated old fart I still think the balance is all wrong. There needs to be both carrot and stick, but we have too much carrot and not enough stick. The system needs to be better equipped to focus on rehabilitation to begin with, but quickly move to raining hellfire if they don't get the message. Right now it tries to rehabilitate them right up until they do something really bad, then puts them in a cell for a few years and lets them out to do more really bad things.

Prison should be the last resort, and only for repeat offenders, but because of that it should be less "Milton Hilton" and more "Devil's Island". "Send them to the salt mines" or "Hard labour on bread and water" should be actual things. Not heated flooring and PlayStations.

The policy chase policy needs to be reversed to "always chase, no matter what" from "never chase bad guys". If the people fleeing die, good, job you just saved the taxpayer some money. If the people fleeing kill or injure third parties, they should be charged with murder / attempted murder. That law and order is seen to be enforced should be the overriding priority here. See also "not standing around while a bunch of foaming nutjobs illegally occupy parliament".

Bring in stand your ground castle laws to explicitly allow people to defend their property with up to deadly force (e.g. finger severing trial should never have happened, guy who shot home invaders trial should never have happened, farmer who shot quad bike thieves trial should never have happened, etc)

Police should permanently armed, be able to user tasers in any situation of non compliance (currently they can only use tasers if a threat exists), and lethal force should be normalized in any situation where a threat exists. Every time the cops drop some sack of shit, the media gets in a tizz, we get all the wailing crying relatives "oh he wasn't a bad guy, why did they have to shoot him just because he was holding a knife to someone's throat" or "why did they have to shoot him for trying to run over a cop then carjack another car to try again". That shouldn't be a thing, it should he did not comply with armed police, he died, get over it. The argument that the bad guys will just start to arm themselves is an utter fallacy, because they are quite clearly already armed if you read the news or talk to any cop.

My 2 cents :-)

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