Tiananmen Square

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surfisup1000

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#2252129 5-Jun-2019 15:06

Fred99:

Oh for goodness sake.

Which is why all the most successful nations in the world are in the spectrum of social(ist) democracies?

I don't include China in either category - most successful or socialist.

There's massive wealth inequality and inequality of opportunity.

Any successful 'socialist' democracy is likely to be primarily capitalist with strong personal ownership laws, and a safety net for disadvantaged people.

This type of government is based primarily on capitalist principles, certainly not socialist.

As you say, it is a spectrum. The more a government turns towards the socialist side of the spectrum, the worse outcome for the citizens of that country.

Rikkitic

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#2252151 5-Jun-2019 15:48

It depends on what you consider the socialist side of the spectrum to be. Plenty of European countries that some would consider to have socialist tendencies yet are amongst the most prosperous in the world.

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Fred99

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#2252275 5-Jun-2019 18:24

Marxism doesn't preclude private ownership of property, nor does it expect that everyone is paid the same.
It does support that ownership of the means of production should be with the state. If you want a stark example of why that's a bad idea, then consider a small bakery. An example of why it's a good idea, the shambles of the American healthcare model.

So back to China and Tank Man - what was going on there...

China was already liberalising laws around private ownership of business and property. Not however press freedom and basic human rights/freedoms. But the demonstrations weren't solely about that lack of freedom and democracy. They were just as much protest against cronyism, nepotism, corruption in the single party state. They're interlinked, and I believe less about communism vs capitalism than about how corruption undermines "fairness" - be that capitalist meritocracy or socialist egalitarian idealism, corruption kills both.

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