Climate Change Thread

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#3108703 27-Jul-2023 10:53

johno1234:

If the emissions are pinned to the consumer not the producer then 75% of our agriculture emissions would be removed from our bill.

Fair point, except you could argue that's already what is happening (in reverse). The FTA with the EU means we have to up our game on the produce we export to them. I would think it would be perfectly acceptable to begin working such clauses into agreements with China whenever they come up for renewals.

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#3108704 27-Jul-2023 10:53

SaltyNZ:

A very important point: a lot of China's emissions are actually our emissions.

You could say the same thing of our agricultural emissions, for food that is exported for consumption elsewhere.

But, if it produces less CO2 or methane to produce food here and ship it to (eg) UK, than for the same food to be produced locally, it's a net win for the environment.

Similarly, if producing Aluminium at Tiwai point reduces global CO2 levels compared to producing it using fossil fuels elsewhere, then subsidising the power to do this is a win. It may be that this is better value for money than (eg) subsidising BEVs, even if the emissions being reduced/avoided are in another country.

wellygary

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#3108710 27-Jul-2023 10:56

Azzura:

It boggles my mind the gov isn't doing some sort of subsidy for solar panels. Until, I realize the power companies are most likely in their ear tellin em not too...

Residential solar as a Climate measure in NZ is not a lowest cost solution,

NZ already has a 85-90% renewable and low carbon grid,

For most households peak Solar generation simply doesn't correspond with peak use and you end up stretching a local power grid designed to send power to houses, to feed a local grid...

Residential Solar really needs storage to allow it ease morning and evening loads (which is where gas peakers contribute most to Co2 emission)

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#3108711 27-Jul-2023 10:56

johno1234:

My goal is also to avoid harming the economy while achieving zero benefit on emissions.

In a very short period of time if not now the economy will be the least of our worries.

tdgeek

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#3108712 27-Jul-2023 10:59

If we wander around and in our house, garage, garden shed, you will find very few Made in New Zealand stickers, very few. I think that the point Salty was making

sen8or

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#3108716 27-Jul-2023 11:06

SaltyNZ:

timmyh:

Also, China makes lots of stuff for the rest of the world so that has a huge impact.

A very important point: a lot of China's emissions are actually our emissions.

That is 100% true, which is I guess where consumerism comes into it. To get China to reduce their emissions, we would need to reduce demand for their products and move away from cheap disposable imports back to quality long lasting repairable products, which would be good from both a climate reduction perspective and also generally good for the environment.

All of the top 3 EVs are manufactured there (albeit Tesla is also manufactured elsewhere) and undoubtedly their manufacture also contributes to China's emissions (victims of their own success).

China and the rest of the world really are between a rock and a hard place....

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#3108726 27-Jul-2023 11:20

sen8or:

All of the top 3 EVs are manufactured there (albeit Tesla is also manufactured elsewhere) and undoubtedly their manufacture also contributes to China's emissions (victims of their own success).

China and the rest of the world really are between a rock and a hard place....

Not really. We all are. China being mentioned as the cause/blame/highest isn't correct, we all are. If there was such a stat called internal emissions that would tell a story. I.e. remove China's exports from its emisisons, and add them to NZ, Australia, etc. Compare those per capita results. If China is a massive manufacturer, then they "should" be efficient per unit, so its probably better that they do what they do (for us, both $ wise and emissions wise)

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ezbee

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#3108733 27-Jul-2023 11:34

wellygary:

Azzura:

It boggles my mind the gov isn't doing some sort of subsidy for solar panels. Until, I realize the power companies are most likely in their ear tellin em not too...

Residential solar as a Climate measure in NZ is not a lowest cost solution,

NZ already has a 85-90% renewable and low carbon grid,

For most households peak Solar generation simply doesn't correspond with peak use and you end up stretching a local power grid designed to send power to houses, to feed a local grid...

Residential Solar really needs storage to allow it ease morning and evening loads (which is where gas peakers contribute most to Co2 emission)

In many parts of New Zealand, the problem for Solar is not just overnight storage, but...
all of winter storage.

Having power generation infrastructure for the winter, that's expected to sit idle much of summer.
Given winter is the peak of the peak of power demand, not a small consideration.

SaltyNZ

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#3108736 27-Jul-2023 11:48

ezbee:

In many parts of New Zealand, the problem for Solar is not just overnight storage, but...
all of winter storage.

Having power generation infrastructure for the winter, that's expected to sit idle much of summer.
Given winter is the peak of the peak of power demand, not a small consideration.

That's one of the few parts of the hydrogen economy that isn't stupid - use the massive overbuild in summer to produce lots of green hydrogen which can be stored a bit more conveniently at industrial scale than it can be in, say, your car. Use it to generate power in winter. Still needs a lot of work but it's a lot more plausible than everyone driving Mirais.

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Azzura

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#3108766 27-Jul-2023 13:58

SaltyNZ:

ezbee:

In many parts of New Zealand, the problem for Solar is not just overnight storage, but...
all of winter storage.

Having power generation infrastructure for the winter, that's expected to sit idle much of summer.
Given winter is the peak of the peak of power demand, not a small consideration.

That's one of the few parts of the hydrogen economy that isn't stupid - use the massive overbuild in summer to produce lots of green hydrogen which can be stored a bit more conveniently at industrial scale than it can be in, say, your car. Use it to generate power in winter. Still needs a lot of work but it's a lot more plausible than everyone driving Mirais.

Maybe...but after watching this. I'm not holding my breath out on Hydrogen. I found it a pretty interesting watch as there are things she talks about that never occurred to me.

johno1234

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#3108792 27-Jul-2023 15:11

Are there any large scale hydrogen consumer platforms anywhere in the world? Be interested to see one.

The stuff is easy enough to make but hard to store and has poor energy density. The distribution logistics make it infeasible as I understand it.

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#3108806 27-Jul-2023 16:08

We need to mine the moon for it's Helium 3 reserves that will power the earth forever and enable interplanetary travel

I read it in a scifi book, so it must be real.

Edit: Actual science. https://www.esa.int/Enabling_Support/Preparing_for_the_Future/Space_for_Earth/Energy/Helium-3_mining_on_the_lunar_surface#:~:text=Unlike%20Earth%2C%20which%20is%20protected,not%20produce%20dangerous%20waste%20products.

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SJB

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#3108808 27-Jul-2023 16:10

Handsomedan:

We need to mine the moon for it's Helium 3 reserves that will power the earth forever and enable interplanetary travel

I read it in a scifi book, so it must be real.

The last thing the Universe needs is for humans to escape the Earth. Akin to a virus escaping a Chinese lab.

Handsomedan

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#3108810 27-Jul-2023 16:14

SJB:

Handsomedan:

We need to mine the moon for it's Helium 3 reserves that will power the earth forever and enable interplanetary travel

I read it in a scifi book, so it must be real.

The last thing the Universe needs is for humans to escape the Earth. Akin to a virus escaping a Chinese lab.

This is true - probably why our galactic overlords have prevented our development.

Handsome Dan Has Spoken.
Handsome Dan needs to stop adding three dots to every sentence...

Handsome Dan does not currently have a side hustle as the mascot for Yale

*Gladly accepting donations...

tdgeek

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#3108832 27-Jul-2023 18:08

Handsomedan:

We need to mine the moon for it's Helium 3 reserves that will power the earth forever and enable interplanetary travel

I read it in a scifi book, so it must be real.

Edit: Actual science. https://www.esa.int/Enabling_Support/Preparing_for_the_Future/Space_for_Earth/Energy/Helium-3_mining_on_the_lunar_surface#:~:text=Unlike%20Earth%2C%20which%20is%20protected,not%20produce%20dangerous%20waste%20products.

We just need replicators. :-)

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