Citizen's Initiated Referendum - transparent return envelopes and general discussion

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#940552 25-Nov-2013 18:45

floydbloke:
richms:

Not really, because it puts actual decision making abilities into the hands of people who are not equipped to make those decisions.

Winston Churchill:

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

Agreed and as I have said before, voting ought to require a licence which you get after passing a test to demonstrate you are not an idiot.

Geektastic

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#940553 25-Nov-2013 18:46

KiwiNZ:
richms:
KiwiNZ:

All referendums should be binding.

Not really, because it puts actual decision making abilities into the hands of people who are not equipped to make those decisions.

That is a very arrogant statement. Democracy is Government of the people, by the people, for the people. It is not government by a select few.

It should be though. I don't want to be governed by the morons I see on Police 10-7 for example.

Geektastic

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#940557 25-Nov-2013 18:49

alasta: I suspect that a lot of people who voted for National were actually opposed to asset sales. If you're a voter who opposes asset sales, and also opposes the big spending plans of Labour/Greens, and also opposes the Conservative Party's stance on things like abortion and same sex marriage then who were you supposed to vote for? If people had to vote for a party whose policies they support 100% then only ideologues would ever vote.

I suspect that is mostly the case, which is why there is a low turnout in elections.

I would only ever vote to keep a left wing candidate from being elected - and only then in a system where I was not required to make my name and address available on a public list in order to vote.

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#940559 25-Nov-2013 18:51

Athlonite: The fact that the national party cronies can just turn around and give us the middle finger and LOL whilst selling off something that doesn't belong to the Govt is astounding .... The referendum should have been binding

Try reading the legislation and learn something.

An Act to provide for the holding, on specific questions, of citizens initiated referenda, the results of which referenda will indicate the views held by the people of New Zealand on specific questions but will not be binding on the New Zealand Government.

Geektastic

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#940560 25-Nov-2013 18:52

jpoc:
networkn:

Binding? How could they make this binding? The assets are already sold.

Given that the shares are all trading well down on the sale price, treasury could just buy them all back again and the nation would have made a tidy profit.

Nothing to stop the Cullen Fund or Kiwi Saver funds from doing that now if these are such great investments...!

Note that the Cullen Fund has only 18% of funds invested in New Zealand however.

MikeB4

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#940561 25-Nov-2013 18:53

Geektastic:
floydbloke:
richms:

Not really, because it puts actual decision making abilities into the hands of people who are not equipped to make those decisions.

Winston Churchill:

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

Agreed and as I have said before, voting ought to require a licence which you get after passing a test to demonstrate you are not an idiot.

Nonsense

Geektastic

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#940562 25-Nov-2013 18:54

KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
floydbloke:
richms:

Not really, because it puts actual decision making abilities into the hands of people who are not equipped to make those decisions.

Winston Churchill:

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

Agreed and as I have said before, voting ought to require a licence which you get after passing a test to demonstrate you are not an idiot.

Nonsense

You'll need to do better than that to explain why the congenitally stupid should vote, I am afraid.

Quic Broadband

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MikeB4

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#940568 25-Nov-2013 19:07

Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
floydbloke:
richms:

Not really, because it puts actual decision making abilities into the hands of people who are not equipped to make those decisions.

Winston Churchill:

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

Agreed and as I have said before, voting ought to require a licence which you get after passing a test to demonstrate you are not an idiot.

Nonsense

You'll need to do better than that to explain why the congenitally stupid should vote, I am afraid.

I am not going to waste my bandwidth on this nonsense with you

Geektastic

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#940571 25-Nov-2013 19:10

KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
floydbloke:
richms:

Not really, because it puts actual decision making abilities into the hands of people who are not equipped to make those decisions.

Winston Churchill:

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

Agreed and as I have said before, voting ought to require a licence which you get after passing a test to demonstrate you are not an idiot.

Nonsense

You'll need to do better than that to explain why the congenitally stupid should vote, I am afraid.

I am not going to waste my bandwidth on this nonsense with you

So we can assume from that that you are more than happy for the opinions of drug-addled morons, the congenitally stupid, the criminally-minded and so on to have equal sway in what happens to you, your family, your money and your country. Extraordinarily generous of you, if misguided.

MikeB4

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#940572 25-Nov-2013 19:14

Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
floydbloke:
richms:

Not really, because it puts actual decision making abilities into the hands of people who are not equipped to make those decisions.

Winston Churchill:

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

Agreed and as I have said before, voting ought to require a licence which you get after passing a test to demonstrate you are not an idiot.

Nonsense

You'll need to do better than that to explain why the congenitally stupid should vote, I am afraid.

I am not going to waste my bandwidth on this nonsense with you

So we can assume from that that you are more than happy for the opinions of drug-addled morons, the congenitally stupid, the criminally-minded and so on to have equal sway in what happens to you, your family, your money and your country. Extraordinarily generous of you, if misguided.

1. Read the electoral acts and learn who can vote.
2. Read some material about what a democracy means.

MikeB4

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#940578 25-Nov-2013 19:21

I have finally received the voting papers, with regards to the initial point of this thread, I see no problem with just folding the slip in half inwards which will help hide your choice

jnawk

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#940583 25-Nov-2013 19:28

KiwiNZ: I have finally received the voting papers, with regards to the initial point of this thread, I see no problem with just folding the slip in half inwards which will help hide your choice

This is of course possible, however unhelpful if you've learned this after you've sealed the envelope! Glad my experience has helped you not reveal your vote to any but those who actually process it.

jnawk

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#940586 25-Nov-2013 19:35

Democracy is Government of the people, by the people, for the people.

This is a somewhat Greek definition of democracy, these days also known as 'direct democracy'. There are no 'direct' democracies in any nation's government - only representative democracies, which are not nearly as catchy in definition. :-)

MikeSkyrme

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#940587 25-Nov-2013 19:35

KiwiNZ:
MikeSkyrme:
KiwiNZ:

I believe that the referendums should be binding

I have two responses to that...:

1. Awesome. Let's get rid of government completely and decide everything by referendum.

OR....

2. There is a binding referendum every few years... it is called a general election, whereby the general public gets to choose the people they believe will make the decisions that need to be made regarding the governing of the country.

I don't believe you fully comprehend democracy

I believe I have a perfect understanding of democracy. I am however, struggling with why you believe I dont't, as your response was a little short on reason.

You need to remember, that when you disagree with something, it does not make it 'wrong'.

The democratic government of NZ, who won the right to govern by gaining the majority of the total votes during the election, have subsequently made decisions, based on their policy statements made during the lead up to the election. Do I agree with every decision the govt makes? No. Does NZ as a whole agree with them? Again, no. Will this hurt them long term? Yes, they will likely be voted out and replaced by another party who will make good and bad decisions, that we the public will have to put up with until yet another change at the helm.

Michael Skyrme - Instrumentation & Controls

scuwp

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#940595 25-Nov-2013 19:51

jnawk:
scuwp:
KiwiNZ:
I believe that the referendums should be binding

So you want to leave NZ's future to a bunch of people who largely may:

Not be qualified in the topic matter
Have no experience or exposure to the topic matter
Are irrationally swayed by public opinion, media images and messaging

Hmmm...interesting concept. Isn't that like asking a 5 year old what they think of middle eastern politics?

Not saying I disagree totally, just depends on the topic.

Way to misconstrue the point - CIRs need 10% support before they even happen. The "bunch" of people you mention are quite a large "bunch". Not as if just any old topic gets 10%+ of the voting population riled up enough to sign a petition about it.

Also, you seem to assume politicians are:

Qualified in the topic matter
Have experience or exposure to the topic matter
Aren't irrationally swayed by public opinion, media images and messaging
Isn't that a little optimistic?

Politicians recognise they are not subject matter experts on many things. Thats why they employ advisors, we have people like Treasury, and they use outside consultants and researchers to give them the information they need to make objective INFORMED choices. A referendum is nothing more than popular opinion based on subjective reasoning largely (I am sure there are many individual exceptions). Great if you want to get public feedback on social issues or such like where this information can be used to add to the decision making process, bad where you want to make highly technical economic decisions.

Lazy is such an ugly word, I prefer to call it selective participation

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