Hot water Cylinder help.

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2849 posts

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#1323404 12-Jun-2015 14:09

Very frustrating for you. At this rate it would be cheaper to keep paying the elec bills!!

sep11guy

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#1323418 12-Jun-2015 14:34

linw: Very frustrating for you. At this rate it would be cheaper to keep paying the elec bills!!

Yeah i know.

The plumber has gone in and changed the unit i mentioned above , so hopefully it will work ( i really hope it does !! )

So just as a future thing-backup plan ( if you wanna call it) i have called in another guy to gimme a quote for getting a new gas-water heating system.

now what i do want to know , from you all here is , say if i chose to go gas ( i am not sure yet if i do want to go this way , or if the current electric issues will be fixed or not ) :

- what type of gas do u suggest - 1) the anytime on demand one, or 2) the storage type one's ( any recommendations ) [ i dont think i have street gas available to me yet ]

- so when i get this installed , shud i make the installer aware of these issues i have been having with the current installation in place. ( or in other words , will the current issues play a part in the new future installation or not )

- and i would like to know - about these gas water heating systems. are they purely running on gas, or do they have a power feed going in to them . will they deliver me good power savings. what kinda savings payback can i expect to achieve ( roughly , for std 3 bed home nothing fancy ) [ i.e - i am trying to figure out if its worth considering changing over ]

mclean

581 posts

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#1323443 12-Jun-2015 15:00

Did you establish yet if you are on a controlled hot water tariff? Most houses in NZ with a storage water heater are. If you are then power is NOT consumed at the same time as you use hot water, and your deductions about power consumption on "standby" may be up the creek.

sep11guy

660 posts

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#1323446 12-Jun-2015 15:04

mclean: Did you establish yet if you are on a controlled hot water tariff? Most houses in NZ with a storage water heater are. If you are then power is NOT consumed at the same time as you use hot water, and your deductions about power consumption on "standby" may be up the creek.

Well with my recent constant monitoring for the past week and a bit more i find that power IS consumed when i use hot water ( i note readings before and after bath etc ) , so it means that hot water is linked to my power , therefore there is a direct link - thats how i see it.

Jase2985

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#1323448 12-Jun-2015 15:10

just check you power bill and see what it says there

sep11guy

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#1323449 12-Jun-2015 15:17

Jase2985: just check you power bill and see what it says there

thanks jase, but i just saw the bill ( pdf download from mercury ) says nothing about hot water whatsoever.

Jase2985

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#1323477 12-Jun-2015 15:50

im more meaning your plan, generally if your on an all day plan you wont have the cylinder controlled, but if you are on a day night plan then chances are it might be

sep11guy

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#1323486 12-Jun-2015 15:53

Jase2985: im more meaning your plan, generally if your on an all day plan you wont have the cylinder controlled, but if you are on a day night plan then chances are it might be

I am on a " Low - Inclusive 2YR " mercury plan. last bill was 805kwh, $246

Rikkitic

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#1323551 12-Jun-2015 16:48

Don't know if this helps but I thought I would respond to your thoughts about gas. I come from Europe, where hot water is commonly supplied by gas-powered 'geysers' that heat the water through a kind of radiator as you use it. I don't know any figures but I imagine this is much more efficient than NZ cylinders because you only heat what you use as you use it and because I think gas is just a more efficient form of heating than electricity. I think a small household probably benefits more because logic suggests that a big pre-heated tank probably offers less value for money if it is only used a little.

Advantages of the geyser are that you only heat what you actually use and you can never run out of hot water (as long as you don't run out of gas). A disadvantage is that temperature depends on flow rate so that cannot be fine-adjusted,which may take some getting used to. You also have to make sure that the geyser you choose has sufficient capacity to heat water to an adequate temperature at the flow rate you prefer. It is a trade-off but if you have gas available, possibly much more economical than electricity.

I often thought if I could choose, I might have a geyser feeding a small tank (heated or not) that could act as a buffer to minimise flow rate issues. This seems to me like the best of both worlds but I don't really know. I am not an engineer and I am just speculating.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

timmmay

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#1323565 12-Jun-2015 17:04

Electricity in NZ is made through renewable resources - mostly hydro. Gas burns hydrocarbons. If you really want an efficient, effective, low cost hot water system put in a heat pump hot water system. They cost more up front but if you use a lot of hot water they pay off in the long term. Even a standard mains pressure system would be a big improvement in experience. Move to Flick electric, set it to heat only during off peak times (2-4am, plus maybe a boost 2:30 - 3:30 when there's a dip in price) and your hot water bill will drop significantly.

Deamo

159 posts

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#1323602 12-Jun-2015 18:01

sep11guy:
Jase2985: im more meaning your plan, generally if your on an all day plan you wont have the cylinder controlled, but if you are on a day night plan then chances are it might be

I am on a " Low - Inclusive 2YR " mercury plan. last bill was 805kwh, $246

With that usage, you'd be better off on a standard plan. Generally "low user" plans are better for people who use less than 600-700kWh per month.. Specifics say 8000kWh annually NI and 9000kWh annually SI

Inclusive would indicate that a relay is connected with no separate metering of hot water.

Based on my experience, for the same usage, a gas hot water systems like the rinnai infinity setups are cheaper to run than electricity.

mclean

581 posts

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#1323614 12-Jun-2015 18:36

sep11guy: I am on a " Low - Inclusive 2YR " mercury plan. last bill was 805kwh, $246

OK, that means your hot water is switched off by Mercury at peak times. When you use hot water during those peak hours the water heater will NOT be use power. Instead it'll come on at some time late at night or early morning and do the reheating then. The power consumption you are seeing through the night is not due to standing losses, it's actual water heating.

Different companies follow different hours. Mine comes on after 2 am. If you're a night-owl and the house is quiet you may hear it start up.

bfginger

1267 posts

Uber Geek

#1323636 12-Jun-2015 19:19

There is not much point having gas hot water if you don't have mains gas available. Bottled LPG costs the same as electricity and is only suitable for gas cooktops or off the grid use. Mains gas costs depends on where in the country you are. It should be cheapest in Auckland. The daily charge is a big part of the cost so it is usually only cost effective to have mains gas for cooktops in the home if you also have mains gas hot water or central heating.

There are online tools to find out whether there is a gas mains outside your house but they won't tell if you if it's a few houses away.
http://vector.co.nz/gas-estimator

Old electric cylinders are uninsulated and leak huge amounts of heat. You can buy a polyester cylinder insulation wrap for $50 which will soon pay for itself. Copper pipe insulation tubes can also save 10c of electricity per day.

The way they call instant heaters "geezers" overseas is confusing as they also call their water cylinders "geezers". Instant gas hot water should be around 10% more efficient than gas hot water cylinders but I doubt they last as long so the total cost may not be so different. Gas hot water cylinders can't have cylinder wraps around them for safety reasons so they need to be well insulated. The level of insulation on new cylinders varies.

There are water heat pumps from better brands available.
http://heatpumpsauckland.co.nz/hot-water/
http://www.bosch-climate.co.nz/products-bosch-hot-water/renewables/compress-3000/compress-3000.html

Being on the right electricity plan will save you money. Plumbers may not be the best people to ask about the best choice of hot water supply. Every one I've known of is either fixated on the standard 180 litre electric or still thinks bottled LPG is cheapest. They're never interested in insulating pipes.

andrewNZ

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#1323657 12-Jun-2015 20:29

Post a pic of your meterbox.

If you're on ripple controled power for hot water, there should be 2 meters and a ripple control unit too. One meter is dedicated to hot water. Your bill should also have a reading for both meters.

Deamo

159 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user

#1323676 12-Jun-2015 20:44

mclean:
sep11guy: I am on a " Low - Inclusive 2YR " mercury plan. last bill was 805kwh, $246

OK, that means your hot water is switched off by Mercury at peak times. When you use hot water during those peak hours the water heater will NOT be use power. Instead it'll come on at some time late at night or early morning and do the reheating then. The power consumption you are seeing through the night is not due to standing losses, it's actual water heating.

Different companies follow different hours. Mine comes on after 2 am. If you're a night-owl and the house is quiet you may hear it start up.

Correction - relays are controlled by the network company not retailers, and are generally only turned off for 2-3 hours at a time, upto a maximum of of about 6 hours within a day.

andrewNZ: Post a pic of your meterbox.

If you're on ripple controled power for hot water, there should be 2 meters and a ripple control unit too. One meter is dedicated to hot water. Your bill should also have a reading for both meters.

Not always, single meters with ripple relays are reasonably common. They're charged at a rate between than the standard "anytime" and "controlled"

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